Get your ATA Rebate Here!

Did you cheat this year?
Have you had targets taken away?
Do you need more money to continue shooting?

As I understand it those who had their targets removed received a rebate/bonus check in the mail. A refund or rebate of sorts. What is the right word? Is it a bonus check to get you to come back next year?

Lots of questions. No answers.

 

Anybody hear of the term penalty?
The money should have been lost given the circumstances.

 

Agreed, but it was likely done as a tactic against legal recourse.

-Gary

 

I don't know the answer myself but do you suppose the ATA was LEGALLY bound to return the money you "heard" about?

Personally I think the guilty party (parties) should be banned from ANY organized target shooting but again, do you suppose the ATA has gone as far as they LEGALLY can?

 

The clubs that orchestrated this mess should never be allowed to throw another registered target.

 

agreed

 

If anybody's targets were erased for whatever reason I would hope the offending party would refund fees paid. If not I believe that would be fraudulently obtaining funds. Don't put this sick puppy on the ATA's door step. If the targets were not recorded and fees not sent to the ATA then you might be looking at the offending club being charged with embezzlement.

Lefty

 

Can a gun club send in scores for a Reg. ATA shoot to the ATA without sending along the money for those targets.
Do some gun clubs send in scroes to the ATA with fees for those scores, and some gun clubs send in the scores without
the fees for those scroes.
I have no idea how the ATA handles that.

Birddog

 

No scores are posted until the ATA receives it's fee.

 

If you fail to pay the ATA fees or file the shoot report within 8 days of the final day of the shoot you're assessed a $25 late fee. Further penalties if the incident occurs more frequently includes suspension of shoot privileges!

 

So, there were two gun clubs which sent in ATA scores and $$$ for shooters who did not shoot those scores,
or with not the correct scores.Then the two gun clubs could not produce the score sheets as requied according
to the rules. No Fees need be retuned.....Get it through your thick brain, No Fees need be returned.
The shooters or shooters are out of Scores, and Money.
ATA does not return, or refund any monies. Their State Trap Shooting Association may elect or decide to
refund state fees, but that is their decision....
Birddog

 

It sounds like the legal advice the ATA received was different then the legal advice you you received.

This can happen. If shooters paid to have targets registered and they were not registered they may be owed something.

I would agree if they were part of the scam no money should be returned.

Of course this is all just rumor at this time but I,m sure Family Guy had a good source.

 

If the ONLY violation was no score-sheets ... why would ANYONE let their targets be taken away ????

That is a club violation, not a shooter violation.

If the only reason could be the shooters don't care about totals .... then why shoot them.

If the shooters are 'de facto' cheaters ... why would there be no other 'action' other than a return of 'fees' and loss of suspect scores.

You can not 'declare' the scores 'false or invalid' without calling the shooters cheaters.

 

Now Lew, what we think should have been done and what was actually done isn't quite the same. As required by the ATA rules, scoresheets must must be kept on record at the club for 1 year. Since the offending clubs were unable to produce those scoresheets the scores were deemed null and void. Since no scores were ever recorded as ever been actually shot it was prudent to return the ATA fees. The state may prove not to be as generous!

 

Ole: Your reasoning for the ATA to return the money is the most stupid thing said on this form for some time.,,,,,, "The gun club and the shooters broke the rules, NOT the ATA, NO Money is refunded. Period..
How could the the shooter or shooters in this case not be part of the scam. They are the scam...
Wishbone, Think,,,, with the amount of targets in question for these shooters, how could the shooters not have know what is going on.
Each shooters is responsible for the own score card, averages etc. The shooters did not know what was going on. That is Bull Crap and
you know it.
Birddog

 

Lew,

You obviously have a lot more information then I do.

I don't know how many shooters or targets were involved.

As a shooter I go to a club and pay my fees.

I trust they will submit scores and payment in a timely fashion.

I further trust they will keep all records as required.

I have scores that don't show up on my record for several months.

But they eventually do and it is not an issue.

The clubs I frequent have all proven to be trustworthy.

Have a good day.

 

No, I do not know or have any more inf. that you, but think about this. The shooter that won the Grand American Handicap Champion
had some 4 to 5,000 targets removed. He did not shoot that many targets over night. With all the clubs you freguent and proven to be trustworthy,
that it is what is making a lot of shooters disgusted and shooting something else besides ATA. What a big Joke.....
You also have a good day

Birddog

 

No, I do not know or have any more inf. that you, but think about this. The shooter that won the Grand American Handicap Champion
had some 4 to 5,000 targets removed. He did not shoot that many targets over night. With all the clubs you freguent and proven to be trustworthy,
that it is what is making a lot of shooters disgusted and shooting something else besides ATA. What a big Joke.....
You also have a good day

Birddog

 

Lew I think you need to go to a release mouse. You had a flinch there.

 

Lew, without scoresheets how could the ATA prove the targets were not actually shot? The ATA did not record the scores of targets without scoresheets therefore they decided it was prudent to return those fees. Maybe those shooters actually did shoot those targets but went into the club after and reported inflated scores. Without scoresheets nothing could be proven so the ATA did the best they could and returned their fees. There were more than two shooters who had their targets disqualified. Letters were sent to all. I suppose the offended shooters should go back to the club and ask them for reimbursement for the shells they shot on targets they were never credited for!

 

"The ATA did not record the scores of targets without scoresheets therefore they decided it was prudent to return those fees."

How can they remove targets that they never recorded ?????

"nothing could be proven so the ATA did the best they could and returned their fees" .... really ???

You call the "shooters" .... "cheaters" without "proof" .... and .... "ATA did the best they could and returned their fees" ..... ?????

We say you cheated so we are sending your money back ....... That is a new kind of stupid ......

 

When the ATA, entered these individuals scores either for one ATA shoot or the ATA shoots into their data base system, Where did the ATA get the scores from.
Did those scores fall from the Heavens, or did the ATA pull them out of the toilet, Where the Hell did they not come from, if not from the gun
clubs reporting the scores for this shooter or shooters. The ATA has to pay someone to enter those scores submitted by the club.
That is an expsense and we, the ATA do not have to refund a DAM cent for their (mistake or cheating) on the gun clubs or shooters part.
Then, Integrity and Honesty come in to play... Those scores are fraudulent and then punishment is handed to the shooters and clubs envolved
by the ATA BOD or EC or who ever takes the bull by the horns.....

 

Scores are submitted to the ATA by the club secretary-not scoresheets. The clubs sent in the required data and fees. Since the club was unable to produce the scoresheets when investigated the scores submitted without available sheets were dq'd. That's not hard to understand. ATA rules require clubs to maintain the scoresheets for a period of one year after the last day of the event. Since the CLUB failed to properly maintain and retain those scoresheets, if they in fact ever existed, the onus fell upon the club-not the shooters. More than one shooter paid the price of dq'd scores. Surely, we all prefer to believe that some hanky-panky was likely in some circumstances but the ability to prove it is unavailable!

 

So .... the 'rule-book experts' need to back this action up with the 'proper rule' that may apply.

Because ... if the ATA can remove targets from a shooter, because of the action of a club, all will need to know.

If I am somewhere on business and decide to register targets at some small club in BFE, and later lose those targets for a reason not my own .... that may require more than a daily-fee refund.

The ATA needs to start speaking before the the cyber-chat 'what-ifs' run wild .....

 

Everyone has access to the rule book.

The situation is covered pretty well on pages 10 and 11.

If you find yourself in this situation and the club involved can't produce the score sheets.

Your scores will be disqualified and the ATA will return your daily fee.

Your quarrel will be with the club over the cost of targets and any other money you feel you are owed.

You may try an take them to small claims court to recoup your target fees and all your other costs.

Fortunately these situations are rare.

 

Funny thing is .... no matter how many times I read pages "10 and 11", I can not find the PENALTY for the club not keeping the 'score-sheets for at least one (1) year', is me losing my targets.

Maybe it is just me .... can someone with better internet access please post it for me ....

page 11 ...

E. KEEPING SHOOT RECORDS
Shoot Management is required to keep the records from all registered
shoots for at least one (1) year. This includes all shoot cashiering information
(entry and options) and actual squad sheets that were used on the field.

 

I am lookiing at ATA Rules, By Laws, Policies that was Reprinted on September 1, 2009. What page and what line are you refering to that will tell me if the club involved can't produce the score sheets. (Your scores will be disqualified and the ATA will return your daily fee.) I am not finding anything refering to
disqualifying of scores and returning daily fee..

Thanks

Birddog

 

User l, I am in the same boat as you on this one.
Birddog

 

I don't think the ATA could write enough rules to satisfy some people.

Clubs are required to keep score sheets for 1 year.

The club in question did not do that and the ATA stepped in.

I understand some people don't like how it was handled.

 

It is not that they don't have enough rules ....

They just make things worse by taking an action that has no backing. If your going to make things up as you go ... at least put some thought into it.

Why have ANY RULE ... if you do not have a clear penalty in place ?????

 

So 99% of clubs registering shoots out there keep the scoresheets for the required 1 year but 1% think it was OK for the deceased secretary to take them to his grave. Now the ATA steps in with an investigation and the required records cannot be produced. Everyone suffers and life just plain old sucks.

It's obvious under the circumstances it was prudent of the ATA to return shooters daily fees, remove the targets from their records and dump the whole issue back in the hands of the offending clubs. It's quite possible the targets claimed by many individuals were actually shot although it is also quite possible that they were neither shot nor scores properly recorded. Can anyone tell us which is actually true/false-just the facts?

 

Wishbone, go to page 10 or 11 and copy it and paste on here what the ATA actual says returnning the daily fee.
My book it does not say that , so just where are you getting it from. Just more doggie do do. right.
birddog

 

Lew, I believe if the same thing happened to you and you actually shot those targets you'd be on the phone with the ATA pleading for some compensation-or threatening to see your lawyer!

 

Gentlemen,

You are being told what was done by the ATA.
Not why it was done or if it was right etc.

If you want to know how the EC arrived at this particular decision you will need to ask them.
Unfortunately our governing body is not very transparent.

But I think you already new that. LOL

 

Ole, Get it through your head, I am not the one who cheated or changed the scores. Do not tell me this
was a lone shooter acting alone and no other shooter on the squad didn't know or the gun club did not know.
Wish a bone, still has not posted parts of Page 10 and 11 because it does not say any such thing..More dam smoke......

 

Lew, over 70,000 targets were removed from various shooters records at one club alone. Are you saying every one of those targets were fraudulent and how do you know?

 

Ole, What are you smokin, What club were 70,000 targets remomved. You must have an inside track on this.. Let us know what club you are talkin about.

 

Lew, of course I have the complete inside scoop so your argument is pointless. Let's say one club was in WV while the other was in West PA. The other club had over 30,000 targets removed from shooters records. Both clubs are within easy driving distance from each other!!

 

If 70,000 targets were removed does that not tell you something was wrong.

 

Of course it's very likely plenty was wrong but without real proof it won't hold water. We should thank the ATA delegates that went out on a limb to bring this thing as far as it went. A similar situation occurred the previous year that was swept under the rug and cost the ATA a great alternate delegate!

 

"Register" a few hundred at one club in the morning. Take a little ride. Have lunch."Register" a few hundred in the afternoon at the other club.

Flyersarebest

 

Or go to the bar and call the scores in.

 

Ole,, I am with you 100% on this. Who ever the ATA Delegates were that went out on the limb on this one.

Thanks from Lew D. Boyko

 

It may possibly save a little time if posting an ATA rule from the "book" to include the date of that rule book? In my latest rule book reprinted Sept 1 2012, check page 41, paragraph 7. for disqualified scores and procedures? Page numbers mean nothing unless the current version is used.

You can also check for "shoot# and "code# on page 67 and what they mean; 4444 is earned yardage for disqualified scores. 6666 is correction to shooters yardage by the ATA office and more code numbers.

HAP

 

If .... the complaint alleges .... "no score-sheets" .... how does this fit ?????

"The Executive Committee may at any time at its discretion suspend any member or discipline shoot management for any conduct specified in Rule XII, B., 1., and/or anyone who:" ....

Note this again .... "any time at its discretion suspend any member or discipline shoot management for any conduct specified" ... it reads (OR) ...

They took the shooter's targets without "suspend any member" .... how does that "discipline shoot management for any conduct specified" ?????

You 'CAN NOT' remove shooters targets without calling them a cheater .... the result of cheating is "SUSPENSIONS, EXPULSIONS, AND REINSTATEMENT" ....

Page 40

C. SUSPENSIONS, EXPULSIONS, AND REINSTATEMENT
1.
The Executive Committee may at any time at its discretion suspend any
member or discipline shoot management for any conduct specified in
Rule XII, B., 1., and/or anyone who:


Page 41

b. falsifies his/her scores; or

2.
A member who is suspended for any reason is barred from shooting
ATA targets or otherwise participating in ATA activities for the period of
his/her suspension.
3.
If the Executive Committee feels the violations warrant suspension for
longer than three (3) years, or expulsion, the member shall have the
right of appeal if he/she complies with the terms and provisions of the
By-Laws of the Amateur Trapshooting Association.

 

Thanks Hap for your imput. But on Page 41, Paragraph 7, it does not talk about returning the daily fees.. It only says that
trophies or monies the shooter won, Must be returned.
That was the point I was trying to make, Where upon a shooter or shooters scores are disqualified, there is no mention of the ATA having
to return daily fees.
Am I Wrong..
Lew D. Boyko

 

ATA will return fees paid for events not shot when a shooter is disqualified. If he's disqualified after shooting 65 birds, he loses that entry fee and that score on his record. If he shoots a score earning yardage and is disqualified, his targets are removed from the records and he still gets the earned yardage on his card. A shooter is entitled to have his entry fees returned once he's disqualified for the day or for the duration of the shoot. Except the one event he's shooting in and gets hammered for an infraction of the rules.

Here the CLUB violated the rule of keeping score sheets on record for a year, The shooters in question had nothing to do with that or any control either. What's missing is proof the club and shooters were in collusion with bogus score keeping if it was that.

I have no idea how many shooters had targets removed from their shooting records either. Legit ATA members would squall like a mashed cat with his tail in a trap if their targets were removed like this and complaints would fill the air mighty quick to get to the bottom of the problem! I haven't heard a word from anyone saying any or all those guys have said a word, yet? Complaints filed against the clubs for causing the shooters to lose thousands of targets from their records should be the next steps? We shouldn't hold our breath waiting for that to happen either.

What and how was the clubs in question were punished or not needs answered too!

HAP

 

Okay Hap, I will take back my remarks about what I said concerning the ATA giving back daily fees. Hap, I know and understand what
you are saying about the club not keeping the score sheets for a year. But, the shooter or certan shooters knew what they we doing.
But Proving it is another thing. I do not believe we will ever know.

Thanks Hap

Lew D. Boyko

 

Glad to see it is finally making sense.

 

Does anyone have factual sources to support these rumors about refunds, number of targets removed, etc. or is that the issue, all rumors???

 

Hap,

How does the following cover those involved?

Under Section XII

page 40 current rules, 6. All entry monies in events not competed in as a result of disqualification
are to be returned in full. Events, which have been started, do not qualify
for refunds due to disqualification.

Are we to assume the contestants involved never started an event, if that is the case why did they pay daily fees?

Was there any handicap scores within the set of disqualified, eligible for increased yardage? If so as a result of the scores being disqualified, did the yardage increase stand? If it did stand, does it not suggest the targets were shot, or if the investigation concludes the targets were not shot, I would assume the yardage will also be returned to original, unless subsequent yardage was gained from the new yardage.

Also, I take the #4444 code as it says, "disqualified score", is meant to be from a disqualified contestant, as in the rule book it says nothing of disqualified scores other than following the scores of a disqualified contestant, that I noted. There is not a penalty, I have noted to the shooter, for which a violation of a rule directed towards shoot management shall apply. There is other paperwork involved with scores, other than score sheets.

So to me, it appears the investigation has concluded the targets were never shot at, in which a refund is appropriate, but other things go along with that. The members knowingly paid daily fees in which target were not going to be shot. In which I think the hammer should fall on many, not just the clubs.

Remember the requirement of the contestant to know the rules. To pay a fee, when knowingly not shooting, I would think would be a big no-no that should be dealt with strongly.

Of course facts as presented, may not be the facts as they are, which may affect any logical outcome. If there is such a thing in this situation.

Just some thoughts.

Shoot well.

John

 

John, I think you're spot on! Those guys may have paid the fees plus handling only without shooting all those targets! That's just my suspicion only. I posted the code portion just in case there was a code show up somewhere down the road on a few.

On another thread, Setterman posted his thoughts on why this investigation has run it's course and why it's the end of it. I happen to agree with him.

HAP

 

All the ATA has to do is inventory the amount of targets the clubs purchased and compare the total to the amount they sold. WALLA/ The IRS does this to catch money laundering. I guess the amount disqualified is considerable so the difference should not be hard see.
Did the clubs charge for the targets not shot? The profit margin should be easy to verify. Any auditor could easily verify or disclaim the charge. Roger

 

The ATA is primarily a record keeping organization that makes some loose rules without the teeth for enforcement. They have no power like the IRS to audit any organizations books!

 

Dawg....isn't that conveniently by design?

 

Olie, If there is a will there is a way. All cheaters leave a trail of some kind.

 

On the outside it appears to be a great racket. You sell targets they don't shoot at a discounted rate. You keep the targets. Shooters keep the winnings. Shooters keep the trophies. Club profits soar. Shooters then get a rebate. That punishment alone is enough to scare me.

 

Bottom line here. Do the clubs still have the same managers? Are they still throwing ATA targets?

How many shooters had targets removed or is that unimportant? Do we know now?

I have more questions.