What's Your Angle?

Why were the angles changed....asked by Hap

My take-----the angle changing is another chapter in the corruption of the ATA.

The Big Dogs of the day were getting their hot shell deliveries. It was whispered "the program."

Failure to maintain that All American average meant losing the pallet of hot ammo. The shooters were chasing averages and averages got endorsements/perks, gear etc. The providers of the equipment did not want their big dog getting a reduction.

It was no secret what clubs were throwing the easy targets. The corrupt clubs got the shooters. The ATA officials I think found it easier to sleep with the corrupt than fight the holy war.

Don't think some of this is going on....think again.

Just my 02 and I am sticking to it.

 

Well since you asked.

I think they angles were changed so little dog could feel like big dogs.
I doubt many All Americans wanted the change.

Clubs narrowed the angles to increase their bottom line.
Average Joe's broke good scores and kept coming back.

The ATA doesn't have the ability to enforce the angle rule.
They tried but in reality they need buy in from clubs and members to enforce the rules.

The ATA is in reality a keeper of scores and schedules.
And really what more would we expect on a $20.00 membership.

I don't think it had anything to do with free shells etc.
The changes were made to please the masses.

When our delegate asked at our annual meeting back in the mid 90 what the membership wanted 2 hole or 3 hole?
The vote was overwhelmingly for the 2 hole.

I am sure opinions will vary so let er rip.

 

Sure..........and the NFL doesn't know anything about inflating footballs.

 

As you wish

But for me the bottom line is if the membership had supported 3 hole that is what we would be shooting.

To me it is good fun no matter what they throw.

I shoot a lot of fun shoots and the targets are often 3 hole and not set that well and the scores are still big.

Rave On.

 

Wishbone, how's that working out for the average ATA member's shooting averages? The singles average today is something an 86 or so? I feel that should dispel the notion the angles were reduced for that group?

Oh but yes they do! At the time all this cheating our setting rule began, very little was actually done to put a stop to it!!

ATA is the record keepers as you say but this in addition; to ensure our rules are followed in a sportsman like manner whether or not the masses like said rules. Just about what's in there but not the same exact wording.

I agree with you it had nothing to do with free shells. Some states delegates voted against their constituents wishes also, just thought I'd throw that in for clarity's sake.

To change back is like asking your kid to give up ice cream once he has a taste of it whether or not it's good for him. Easy, free and other examples shouldn't be any part of deciding how to maintain or grow our sport. We all must be fair to our sport first, then shooters. How's our sports growth since all those changes took place? Our retention rate is still dismal at best yet we keep hoping.

HAP

 

Most of what's being discussed is right. Some program shooters were known as singles specialists and worked very hard to soften the targets to maintain their averages and free shells. Clubs did abuse the rule to gain business as shooters will shoot where they score the best. The ATA could have maintained the three hole target at the bigger shoots where they were in attendance but the decision was made to dumb down the sport to attract and keep shooters by offering the ability to shoot higher scores. Still continuing today with more classes, more prizes and two yard reductions. Hard to change direction at this point and the rewards of shooting other than posting a good score are gone. What's remaining is watered down to much to provide any meaningful trophies unless the cost is raised and that will not create any goodwill. Might just as well ride the ship to the end.

 

Things in a nut shell. So more people can break good scores and feel good.

 

hap
I have read a lot of your stuff and I don't think we agree on much.

I do believe we shoot 2 hole targets because the majority of members wanted it that way. (Doesn't mean they were right)

I don't believe the ATA can do much without the membership buying in on the decision. (The Membership is the ATA)

If no one took the 2 yard reduction they would not have offered it a second time.(I was not offered the 2 yards either time)

I do believe targets setting will never get any more difficult. (2 hole for the last 20 years the only complaints are in cyberspace)

You can hope all you want.

You can talk about whats good for the sport all you want.

But in the end there is the reality of the situation.

To put it another way you and and a few more have been typing your fingers to the bone for years and no change has come about.

I don't think anything will change. If change is brought about it won't come from cyberspace.

It would be from a grass roots movement at the local gun club.

I shoot 2 hole , I shoot 3 hole,I just like to shoot.

Rave On.

 

Western Shooter

That was very well said. Cheers

Ken Cerney

You are correct sir.

 

At our little Ikes club we shoot 3 hole targets. When I shoot ATA I really don't notice much of a difference between the angles of 2 hole and 3 hole. Throw in a little wind and a person couldn't tell the difference if they were an expert on the subject.

But then again I'm looking at the bird to break it not at which way it is flying.

 

In the history of our sport, the only time shooters were ever asked what flavor they liked was during the period of voting for easier target angles. Once there, it is almost impossible to revert to a tougher setting I agree but it's not hopeless for the good of our sports growth! Where does this kind of thinking stop? Shooting everything thrown as a true straight from post 3? All perfect scores wouldn't be shot under that setting either.

HAP

 

Is that what we are supposed to do? 90% of the two clubs I shoot at regularly just stopped shooting ATA. If I didn't care I wouldn't post.

 

I owned a Gremlin in the 70's. Loved the car. I drove it beyond it's usefulness. One day one of my friends told me I needed to take the fancy gas cap off the back and park a new car under it. Maybe that is where we are?

 

When people shoot a good score they feel good Now the rest of the story---They continue to come back and shoot and more money to the ATA in fees and membership so to wrap it up IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!

 

Ken
3/4 of our shooters have disappeared. Are you sure they are coming back? Or did we just think they would.

If it is about the money the ATA will make some decisions quick. I am not sure we can survive another year of this. Soon there will be no money for free guns. No money for 6 figure salaries. No free trips. No free lunches. No motels.

 

Why is everyone so bent out of shape with the free gun and 6 figure salary? Is there a bit of jealousy or resentment going on?

Personal preference, recession and many other reasons have decimated the membership of not only the ATA but organizations like the Moose Lodge, Elks Lodge and about every other organizations that was popular with the men returning home from WWII. The world is a changin boys, better get used to it!

 

90% of today's trapshooters haven't the foggiest idea what hole the targets are set in. The biggest gripers about 3-hole targets were marathoners and the ATA catered mostly to their wishes. Big dogs like Kay Ohye and Frank Little advised against it but the ATA was getting plenty of additional fees at that time from those guys and it was all about the money!

 

What are marathoners?

 

Guys who were into shooting sometimes thousands of targets /day. They never liked to move the gun much and always preferred a soft target!

 

Soft targets and no wind days made for a good average. You can go to shoots and can see who wants the high average, they won't be there on windy days.

I always get stuck with the 25 - 30 mph in your face or pushing you forward but hey, I come to shoot.

 

Family Guy, The ATA is like the Democrats. They are in denial. They keep going down the wrong road taking us down with them. I think we are too far gone to change. We can keep trying but I don’t see the change. As for the Democrats we already started to vote them out. We just need to keep it up and then hope we start to see the change.

 

Ken, it would seem you are so right concerning any changes in the near future. Most here probably couldn't tell you when the last change was mandated making a slightly more difficult target presentation happened? Would it seem something has changed in how we set shooting records since that last change occurred in 1969?

Some say they don't care what target presentations they shoot and they'll continue shooting anyway. There are actually a few in leadership roles today that would love to make our game even easier? According to some, that wouldn't hurt our game either as that would allow us lesser shooters break better scores?

I'll never believe that nonsense and never give up the hope we can elect delegates to right wrongs done in my sport even with all the good intentions.

HAP

 

When we look at who has the helm now and who is poised to take over.

I think we are in for more of the same for the next few years.

I don't see any up rising on the horizon and that's about what it would take to alter our course.

 

I understand that with the old winchesteer traps you could set the angle very easily by moving the pin. With pat traps you hae to change the magnets and then figure where the target is going. I think you can even set one sire wider or narrower then the other side and they are not always the same-side to side. Is there a standard measurement for angle on a pat trap???Measure with ruler or do yu need to stand outside and actually see the angle . motordoc

 

On the G series Pat traps, serial numbers 2740 and up, the have a bar that sets between the switches on the hydraulic cylinder. You can set your field on right or left then when keeping that switch at that location you move he other switch enough to place the proper bar in between. The bar lengths are as follows for two hole targets 4 1/4" and for 3 hole 5 1/4". Hope this helps.