Trap barrels

I read a article about top single barrels becoming more popular than unsingles and I just wanted to get some opinions about that.

 

Works for me. I cross-dominate far less with a top single than an unsingle.

 

I was wondering the same thing just the other day
Where did you read that? I would like to read it also

 

I had an MX-2000 with the 34" unsingle , shot it okay but was always guessing so I sold that and got an MX 2000/8 with the 34" top single which I feel more comfortable shooting being as I shoot off the end of the barrel ... I have a TMX 34" which I like being as it has a higher rib and I stand more straight than leaning into the gun ... I think it might be a mind game we play with ourselves but have been told by some of the big guns not everyone can adjust to the unsingles ... If the Point of Impact is set the same can't see why it would make a difference but it does (see : Mind games ) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I’ve tried shooting the Unsingle and high rib guns ( just sold a DT11) that beat the snot out of me. I keep going back to my perazzi MX3 Special top single combo. I think all the super high rib and under single guns will soon be a buyers market .

 

wpt, I still have an old TM1 that I’m rather fond of, great guns!

 

I think the author of the mystery story may be onto something. Now I suppose he/she could be in the pocket of an unknown gun maker who does not manufacture high rib top singles or unsingles.

I can be included in the list as one of the allergic to un-singles and high rib top singles. MX 8, MX 3, MX 3 Special and TM 1; Ljutic, Bowen, Alfermann and Silver Seitz flat ribs are a blast from the past for sure. Are they also the wave of the future? I am not sure sales trend figures can be found. I imagine each manufacturer may track their own figures by barrel and rib type. What about the used market?

I am convinced that the “upright stance” and “head erect” phrases are pure marketing in nature. Let us take the TM-1 and the TM-X as examples. Some may recall that once upon a time, Perazzi offered two off the rack American trap monte carlo stocks. They were known as the number one and the number four. One had 1 3/8 DAC and one had 1 1/4 DAC. When Perazzi introduced the TMX; they marketed the “benefit” of this more erect heads up concept. I believe they were the first to use the terms in connection with a new gun.

Drop at comb (DAC) is measured as a relationship of the rib to the comb. If a factory stock has 1 3/8 DAC, 2 1/4 DAH and identical DAT numbers; what changes about the human holding the gun mounted between rib styles? Anyone who observed Dan Bonillas shoot both his MX-3 and his DB-81 knows his posture did not change. The only way to alter shooter posture is the relationship of the stock to the human in a fitted way.

Now any shooter can take any configuration of stock and rib and address the gun like a bunker shooter or like this:



Some of you may recognize the shooter depicted.

However, will the subject shooter be able to address any target presentation with a perfect combined visual and physical move? Most likely, he/she will not. The stock will favor one posture or another in terms of target breaking performance.

 

While I think super high rib and unsingle barrels might be good for some (head erect, less mirage from a hot barrel, etc), I think they can be much less forgiving of any unintended canting of the gun. Slightly canting a top single changes the Point of Impact less compared to an unsingle. For folks who aren't 100% perfectly consistent in their mount and might occasionally cant their gun, I think top singles can be a better choice.

 

I agree with you mpolans, I shot an unsingle for a couple of years, real well at 16's, not so good at handicap. I went with a top single and an add on rib to raise my pattern to 100% while looking flat down the rib on both my single bbl and over under. Helped me for the last twenty years I shot.

 

I believe the "head erect"/"upright stance" has merit for some people. For instance, when I tilt my head to come into the correct sight picture with my top single or O/U barrels, I risk losing vision. e.g. I can't focus BOTH eyes on the same point properly with my head tilted past a certain angle; I sort of get a 'double vision'. A more 'head erect' posture avoids this problem. As I get older, it seems to be getting worse.
Doesn't mean I have to go to an unsingle, just means I have to be very careful with my mount, or I have to have a custom stock built in the foreseeable future.
I'm not concerned with the popularity of unsingles, compared to top singles. Like wpc, I tend to shoot off the end of the barrel, and just prefer the top single. I outfitted one of my target guns with a higher rib, and shot both my best and my worst scores in years with it. The inconsistency led me to go back to a 'low' rib.

 

I agree with Brad. I have tried several unsingles and found them to be inconsistent especially in handicap. I shot some of my best scores with flat ribbed guns, TM1 MX8 style. As the years went by I found I needed a higher shooting gun and am now very happy with an older type 3 MX-8 combo with add on ribs to make it shoot 90/10. Had the high over-all average in the nation last year for a veteran shooter. As a stock fitter for many years I came to realize that having the head erect and shooting an upright stance is more a function of the distance between the center of the recoil pad and the plane of the rib than the height of the rib. An adjustable plate for the pad will allow you to move the pad down thus increasing the distance between the pad and the rib and allowing you to have your head more erect.

 

I am the opposite. I had a top single on my Krieghoff and it beat the snot out of me. Switched to an unsingle and noticed a huge difference immediately. Shot better with it too. I'm sure it depends some on the particular model gun too...

 

Pitch of your stock is also very important for recoil. I shoot zero pitch, if you want to know why Dave Berlet and i did a U tube video several years back and it explains my thinking better than I can write it. Brad

 

Not sure how whether a barrel is an unsingle or a top single makes a difference with felt recoil or getting beat up...that sounds more like a stock fit and/or a mount issue.

 

Mel said:

“As a stock fitter for many years I came to realize that having the head erect and shooting an upright stance is more a function of the distance between the center of the recoil pad and the plane of the rib than the height of the rib. An adjustable plate for the pad will allow you to move the pad down thus increasing the distance between the pad and the rib and allowing you to have your head more erect.”

This is precisely that which the gun makers fail to state as they market new ribs with the same nominal stock dimensions as supplied with the older rib styles. They offer the bait that the rib is what generates the “advantage.”

 

When you start making the distance between the center of the recoil pad and the plane of the rib greater so you can use the heads up erect style, the dynamics and pivot point of the gun changes. The pad basically is the solid base of this pivoting motion. The muzzle is the part that can easily move up during recoil. Enter the unsingle. It moves the line of recoil down and helps to keep the muzzle down. Ideally, when you shoot your muzzle should come straight back and not "jump". This can have a lot to do with your gun mount and how much you lean into the gun to absorb recoil with your legs. However, the geometry of the gun and the line of recoil can cause muzzle jump. Putting pitch in the pad helps to equalize pressure of the recoil on the shoulder and lessen muzzle jump. Adding weight to the barrel also helps keep the muzzle down. I use aluminum add on ribs to both change my point of impact and add much needed, for me, weight to the muzzle. Down side for some is that my gun weighs in at 10 pounds. For me it makes the recoil less and the swing smoother.

 

I would think it would be more a function of the distance between the top of the comb and the plane of the rib.

 

Nah. Just to exaggerate it to make a point, think of an adjustable recoil pad that was slid *up* so it extended above the comb; you could have a comb that was still pretty much on the same plane as the rib, but you'd be cranking your head and neck down. Relationship between center of recoil pad and plane of the rib should determine whether the head is erect or not. Intuitively, I would think comb height definitely plays a huge factor in fine tuning fit, getting a good cheek weld on the stock, and making sure your eyeball is where it needs to be in relation to the front bead.
All other things being equal, if you simply cranked the comb height up, sure, your head would be erect, but your eye would be much higher in relation to the front bead/muzzle, meaning you'd be pointing the gun a lot higher too.

 

Most shooters I deal with like the top singles over the High rib unsingles. They usually can't the unsingle or cross fire more with all that rib to look through. I personally like the top single.

 

Ljutic made a "reverse montecarlo" stock back in the day .....

Trapshooters seem to purchase anything "new at the time" that is supposed "help" with something .....

 

That was my point.
Instead of saying "I would think it would be more a function of the distance between the top of the comb and the plane of the rib.", I should have said "the distance between your eye (determined usually by the top of the comb) and the plane of the rib.

 

But that’s not quite correct either. It’s still best stated as, “The relationship between center of recoil pad and plane of the rib should determine whether or not the head is erect.”
Comb height determines point of aim by raising and lowering your eye in relation to the muzzle. Folks do not raise or lower the comb in relation to the plane of the rib...unless you really raise your comb 2” and then intentionally try to point your gun so that targets are always 2” above your rib? Never heard of anyone actually doing that, but I suppose it’s possible.

 

Of course that's the way it works. If you raise the comb, you raise it in relationship to what? The answer is: the rest of the gun....of which the rib is part. Raising the comb in relation to the barrel/rib is the whole point of the exercise.

 

As a bona fide recoil sissy, I use PFS on both my unsingle and topsingle. I think there is a difference but stock fit and recoil reduction devices make it all good.

 

"...top single barrels becoming more popular than unsingles" ??
I daresay they've ALWAYS been more popular than unsingles.

 

Shooter in pic is Britt Robinson, one of the best ever.

I know him and discussed this issue with him since I'm one eyed.

He stated, made absolutely no difference. Depends on the shooter and what he prefers.

 

That`s the stock from J.O.Bates old standard rib Ljutic...

Trap3

 

You have me confused!. I shoot a browning XT combo --Always shoot the bottom barrel for Handicap do to being told bottom barrel has less recoil --So is the bottom barrel, on a double barrel, more susceptible to a cant than the top barrel? Should I be shooting bottom barrel at the 16 which would be far more forgiving to a cant? The XT unsingle barrel shoots the exact place as my bottom barrel --So your saying the bottom barrel of a double barrel has the same problems of a unsingle? Great thing about this forum --Sure makes a person question what you have been doing for years

 

Slightly, yes. As an experiment to show it in an exaggerated manner, take your gun and cant it 45 degrees and check out where the top of the top plane of the rib is in relation to the over barrel and the under barrel. You'll see that the over barrel is closer to the plane of the rib, though still out of alignment. Obviously, most folks don't cant that much. Also, if you're consistent in your mount and/or keep the gun perfectly vertical, it won't matter.

 

Both barrels are still in the same positional relationship with the rib, they're just not vertical to the force of gravity.

 

I like the Un-single because I like a high POI, and the slope of the rib raises the POI, I shoot 100% POI, I like 18"inches the best and I, do not float targets, I touch the bottom and release the trigger, Un-singles can be higher shooting, not always, it depends on the amount of Slope, the steeper the slope the higher it shoots, I shoot ZERO Pitch stocks and a Figure "8" sight picture on all my guns.

GB..........................................DLS