Pat Trap Rubber Bands question?

The rubber bands on Pat Traps, do they throw a target farther when they first start throwing targets before the warm up? After throwing several hundred targets, do they still throw them to the same distance?

Has Pat Trap Mfgr. Company converted their Pat Traps to steel springs? Or are they still using the rubber bands?

What is the life expectancy of the rubber bands? At what interval should they be replaced?

Roger do you have any information on the above, you could clue us in on?
Gary Bryant


Dr.longshot

 

Roger: Angles & Pat Traps Feb. 17th, 2009 by Phirel: Pat Ireland, During scoring I rarely see more than 2-3 hard angles out of 125 targets thrown. JBrooks: Feb 17th, 2009 Pat Trap does not stop at extreme angles, It Rebounds every 1/8th inch it rebounds cuts the angle 1 degree,/ HMB Feb 17th 2009 lack of angles. NW May 21,2008 On Pat Trap Angles 176 replies, / Pat Ireland a true trapshooter before his death, noted discrepancies in the Pat Traps and listed some of them on his post. HMB Also posted on the Pat Trap Angles Feb 17th 2009. Pat Ireland on comments by ATA Pres Neal Crausaby on angles. Pat Ireland expresses that angles should be more extreme and make trapshooting more competitive 82 replies to Pat Ireland posting. Pat Traps were under a lot of scrutiny in 2009.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Gosh. Gary, thanks for reminding me of that old post! It specifically addressed all the nonsense we read about the high winning scores today's fluff targets are leading to. If fact, over the 40+ years - from the "Golden Age of Trapshooting" - 1960 and 1978, to today 34 degree target, the winning scores at the Grand American and the Minnesota State Shoot have hardly changed at all! I expected that the A and AA scores wouldn't be much affected, but the lower classes show the same thing, probably because when shooters are "really on them," it matters little whether the targets are set in the two or three hole.

The results of the GAH in 1978 vs 2007 are a real revelation! All those short-yardagee shooters breaking 99's and 98's! Those scores are way better than we expect from the equivalent shooters today, shouldn't they all be breaking hundreds today? It's so much easier, after all!

Here's the thread. I hope readers here enjoy it!

http://www.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx/threads/short-history-lesson-with-history.29957/

Neil

 

Gary, you wrote

"Pat Ireland expresses that angles should be more extreme and make trapshooting more competitive 82 replies to Pat Ireland posting. "

and I must have missed that. Could you supply a reference to the thread so that so we can go read his words for ourselves?

 

DLS when quoting someone it is best to not take the comment out of context. Especially if that person is no longer around to defend themselves.

From the link below

http://www.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx/threads/do-pat-traps-have-trouble-throwing-hard-angles.55336/#post-541265

"I too remember the comment by Neal Crausbay. I have not been able to get much data to prove or disprove his idea. I have noticed that standing between post one and two while scoring, I rarely see more than 2-3 hard right angles out of 125 targets. I really don't know what this means other than it takes a lot of time to check the angles when setting fields. On the other hand, when I shoot on post one, the hard left angles seem to be common.

Pat Ireland
phirel, Feb 17, 2009 "

"JBrooks- I have seen what you describe as "rebound" but I am not sure it is actually a rebound. To really get at this question, we need to eliminate the interrupter. If everything is working correctly, the instant that the limit switch touches the magnet, the machine should smoothly reverse. Then the number of extreme left angles should equal 1/2 of the number of straight aways from post three and the total of the extreme left and right angles should equal the number of straight aways.

If we then apply the principle of inertia, the very short time required to stop the machine and start it again, would slightly increase the time spent at the extreme angles making the total of the left and right angles slightly greater than the number of straight aways.

To confirm this with field observations would be very difficult. It is not easy to distinguish an extreme left angle from a nearly extreme left angle.

With the older Winchester traps, again with the interrupter disables, the movement of the trap would be fastest when it is set to throw a straight away and as it approaches the left or right angle extreme, the speed at which the machine would slow down. This is a result of the push rod pivoting from an off set hole in a circular disk. The older traps should then throw more angles than straight away targets.

We need to get zzt to do some math for us. Calculating time/speed of rotation from a push rod in an off set hole in a circular disk is a problem I do not want to do. Possibly, many years ago I knew how to solve this problem in some class, but today, I don't.

Pat Ireland

phirel, Feb 17, 2009 "

 

Thank you Wishbone, I found that too. I just didn't find the sentiments from my good friend and 15-year fellow BOD member Pat Ireland that DLS refers to, specifically, again,

"Pat Ireland expresses that angles should be more extreme and make trapshooting more competitive 82 replies to Pat Ireland posting. "

 

But of course it's not misleading or misinformation etc. when it comes from the Doctor!

 

That's the weird thing about americantrapshooter.com, Bat. Consider the current situation on another thread. Someone claims he is quoting something I wrote and when I challenge him on it he never comes back to cite his source and I'm called the liar!

 

Dr.
The rubber band also increases speed after warming up. The difference between the band and a spring is the band needs constant flexing to maintain their throwing energy. If you shoot lead off you should notice the first target called when changing posts is usually a little low and short. This may be due to the band weakening with age, this is just a guess. The band is much more tempermental than the springs are.
I rate the band right up there with the height setting guage that clubs are now using. Most have eliminated the bench mark for setting the height. The ATA officals know this and do nothing the correct the violation of their rules Also most of the people using the radar guns do not have a clue as to what they are doing. I have seen them on the 27 yd. line standing on post one using a one hand grip like the are pistol shooting.
I had one of the setters check the speed of a trap at a major shoot. He checked and started to walk away, I ask what was the speed. His answer was 45mph. I said that was to fast. His reply was what the hell is 4mpr. Oh well.

 

I wish You guys would quick yakking about this, as it is really starting to give me a complex. If the shells are so good, and the targets are so easy to hit, why in the hay, can't I break all of them every time? I guess I'm just lousy, but I still have a lot of fun shooting trap, and met some great people along the way. Cheers!

 

Roger Coveleski would know trap machines, was in the business for many years ... Was always a parts source for things no one else had when the old Phx Club was up and running ... I served on the Board of Directors with him, the man knows his business ... He put a new trap in a house out there, that was in there so long we forgot about it and it never needed any repairs ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Roger,

Am I correct in thinking that a person has a choice between a rubber band or a spring in a new Pat Trap? Does a spring add so much cost that people tend to shy away from it?

 

Leonidas,
I do not think so. The reason for the change was do to an inferior design when a spring broke on a Pat it would do a lot of damage to the under side of the machine. Thus the band.
At one time you could change it back, but I was told it cost over $750.00 to do so. this is hear say/
I personally feel it was the biggest and worst thing to happen to our sport, the radar gun is second and the protractor is third. I will not rate what the E.C. has done with it's feel good changes as over half of our members would not belieive me.
The spring is cheaper. And you only need one. Roger C.

 

What it is is what it is but you would have thought they could have put a cable or something in the spring so when it broke it was contained.

I shoot at one club that uses the radar gun and the 50 yard distance stake. The other clubs I shoot at use a radar gun but still use the story pole at 10 yards. You definitely can tell the difference.

 

Leonidas, Stewart is a bull headed man, He did not want anyone improving his machine. The spring breakage is the least of the reasons not to like the target presentation from them. I hope I was of some help with my statements. Roger C.

 

You were Roger, Thank You.

 

The rubber springs were designed and patented by a guy(can't remember his name) from Sandusky, Ohio. The bands were made for just about every popular trap made. The sales and distribution rights were sold to Pat trap. Pat trap uses the rubber bands because the springs break and damage the machine.

 

Trapshooter,
I looked at that process when the name was ground off of the band and I recognised it for what it was. The dimensions have now been changed but the origonal still came off of an exercise machine. He did not invent anything he adapted the process to another application. A company in Kansas tried to market it before Pat started using it. It was no good then and has not changed. It takes two of them to replace one spring and the cost is higher to the clubs. Roger

 

The gentleman who patented the rubber bands for the PAT trap is Thomas Ritzenthaler.

Patent No. 5,704,341
Patent Date Jan. 6, 1998

Here's the cover page :

 

When I looked at Tom's invention he had no tooling to produce the product.Having a patent is not proof of concept. GMV had aworking model for an elevator to bring a target in to the battery position, but they did not get it patented. HistoryBuff, if you want to discuss this further I will do it in private but not on this forum. Maybe the history will be more accurate.

 

Roger,

I have no reason to doubt you and fully agree with your statement that having "a patent is not proof of concept."

I was merely trying to provide information to the post by Trapshooter regarding the name of the patent holder from Sandusky, Ohio. I thought others might like having the patent # and date so I included a scan of the first page of the patent. As a history buff that's what I do and over the years I have compiled patents in large binders for targets (glass balls, clay, metal, pitch & ice), target making equipment, traps and hand traps.

I have seen how knowledgeable your are on the subject of target throwers and have appreciated the information and insight you have given to readers. If I do have any questions, I'll certainly take you up on your offer.

Kenny Ray

 

Kenny,
There is a lot of history that needs to be known and preserved. Also a lot that does not need to be discussed on this open forum. If I can be of any help please call on me I will try to be of service. Roger C.

 

Thomas Ritzenthaler. That's the guy. Tom had someone making the bands. Back then he had bands for most popular machines.

 

It is against the law to use anothers companies tooling to produce a product for a third party. I believe it falls in the catagory of fraud. Roger

 

Patent infringement, if someone had one ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Patent has nothing to do with using tooling other than you own. If your tooling is in the posession of a company that makes parts for your company they can not use that tooling to make parts for anyone else. Roger