The Trapshooting Forum - 1923

Our discussions of today are merely echoes from our past !​

Kenny Ray

​

 

"A moderate degree of friction may keep the works from clogging, just as too much is likely to wear out the machine"

I do like that.

 

"Perhaps the stimulus of such an opinion is better for trapshooting than general agreement would be."

Like back to the future. Must have fixed that flux capacitor.

 

Does this "Trapshooters' Poll" look a little familiar? It was taken over 100 years go.

 

The ATA needs to use this system to make changes, Post Cards would be counted for changes. Did you notice target distance 55-65 yards in the old days too.
DLS

 

The BOD and EC do not want a change. They will never undertake such a poll.
If someone else wanted to do a poll there is nothing stopping them but time and money.

When you stand up at the Annual meeting @ the end of June in Ohio and make am impassioned plea to bring back 3 hole targets it will be interesting to hear the feed back you get from the membership.

Have you lined up a candidate for delegate? That seems like it would be the bases of a good campaign platform.

 

There have been many times A.T.A. Executive Committees have conducted write-in polls over the years. Much of the time the returned responses are so minimal they could not be considered representative of the membership.

I doubt very seriously that anyone will make a presentation for wider and longer targets, a shell speed standard or anything else at any State or Provincial meetings this year or any other year.

A century ago shooters were divided on ideas of just what was for the betterment to the sport of trapshooting. None had a wish to hurt the sport or its participants but just the opposite. However, they held opposing opinions supported with what sounded like logical reasons.

So, what were the results of the Interstate Association's Poll of 1913 ?
Here's how it was reported :

THE DIRECTORS’ MEETING.​

A meeting of the Board of Directors was held immediately after the close of the stockholders’ meeting. The meeting was called to order by J. T. Skelly, with E. Reed Shaner acting as Secretary. The following officers were elected to serve during the ensuing year: President, F. G. Drew; vice-president, F. B. Clark; secretary, E. Reed Shaner; treasurer-manager.

Elmer E. Shaner. The minutes of the Directors’ meeting, held December 5 and 6, 1912, at Jersey City, and June 18, 1913, at Dayton, O., and those of the several mail votes taken during the year, were duly approved. Upon motion, duly made and seconded, the following resolution was unanimously adopted :

"In view of the fact that 6700 trap shooters who attended registered tournaments in 1913 were requested to express their views in regard to proposed changes in the trap rules and that only about one-half of them replied to this request, the tabulated replies showing as follows:

Are you in favor of changing the standard distance for target shooting from 16 yards to 18 yards?
928 yes; 1925 no.

Are you in favor of restricting loads for target shooting to 3 drams bulk, or the equivalent in dense
powder and 1 1/8 oz. of shot?
1423 yes; 1385 no.

Are you in favor of making the regulation distance for throwing targets not less than 55 yards nor more
than 65 yards?
1313 yes; 1379 no.

Are you in favor of letting conditions remain as they are?
1405 yes; 965 no.

Suggestions made as follows:

Throw targets 45 to 60 target, 58.

Reduce price of ammunition and do away with professionals, 56.

Use handicaps at all tournaments, 40.

Restrict load to 3 drams of powder and 1 ¼ oz.of Shot, 33.

Hold gun below elbow until call of "Pull," 12.

Use smaller gauge guns, 12.

Use smaller targets, 10.

Classify shooters, 9.

Throw targets at varying heights, 7.

Change division of moneys, 3.

This indicates that there is no necessity at the present time for making any changes, be it,
Resolved, That no changes be made in the trap shooting rules as revised in 1909."

 

History Buff I think you are spot on.

But it would be a good way to promote change.

I wonder if anyone in Arizona this week will standup and make there case for a 30 yard line?
I understand the current delegate is moving out of state.
I think Roger or Hap would bring a lot of passion to the position.

What about Florida they are holding a State shoot as well this week.

 

Wishbone,

Those with the belief that changes making our sport more challenging are not only in the minority, they are greatly outnumbered by those who believe higher scores are what attracts and maintains shooters. That opinion has been prominent for over a century. It all sounds like rational thinking.

However, trap shooting continued to gain in popularity in the early days and once rivaled base ball. And, it attracted more people each year even though the game called for minimum hard angles of 45 degrees and doubles set at 32 degees on each side of the center stake. That's right the game in the old days, up to about 1950 or so, called for doubles to be set 10 degrees wider than the straightaway angle setting from Posts 1 & 5. The rules called for stakes to be placed at 20 degrees and 65 degrees on each side of the 50 yard stake, and any target within those stakes were legal.

In fact, since the earliest clay target shoot, shooters & management have been trying to spice up the game, increase the skill required to break a good score. This was achieved in many ways from walking doubles events in 1884 to a proposal by George S. McCarty, second president of the A.T.A. who wanted to stage a "grouse event" during the 1922 Grand American, shooting under field conditions. This was in addition to the 18-Yard event at 200 targets.

That minority also has questioned the wisdom of departing from the original conditions (wing shooting) in the creation of the trap shooting game. That minority also felt that if perfect or near perfect scores were best for the game . . . . . why not just throw only straightaway targets, after all, the trend has been to narrow the legal target area since the 1950's so why not just get it over with.

In fairness I should also point out that the sport continued to grow in interest after the move to make it less difficult and challenging.

I've read a lot about our history and I don't recall reading any reports of shooters complaining of the handicapping in live bird shooting. At the 1896 Grand American Annie Oakley was handicapped at 27 yards, with the "back fence" being 33 yards. During some Grand American tournaments only 2 or 3 shooters in the world were placed at 33 yards. Those shooters knew it was a game of skill with some luck thrown in. It was not supposed to be easy. No sport is.

One thing I know is that trapshooting at clay targets has always been considered as a "tedious" game and the magnitude of higher scores and more shoot-offs have only caused that monotony to intensify.

I don't have any insight on Arizona trapshooting but I've had discussions with HAP in the past and I believe he would be a find representative of the game.

There is no taste for making the sport more challenging as it once was. The only desire held by most shooters is to increase the distance handicap for those who work hard to attain good scores from maximum yardages. We'll just move them back so they can never win the Grand American Handicap.

Oh, but there's only been 9 (nine) 27-yarders' win the GAH since 1955 when 27-yards became the back fence, the first one in 1978. Only 1 (one) 26-yarder (1990) during that period and 0 (zero) 25-yard shooters. Maybe the handicap system isn't working so bad after all.

 

As always very good information from HistoryBuff, it appears that history does indeed repeat itself

 

A 27 yard shooter won the GAH this year. The problem is that he was shooting from the 18. It there a larger documented failure of the handicap system?

 

History Buff (KR), You never cease to amaze me !!!

Always such interesting old items coming from your studies.

The Hall of Fame quality presentations to us from you are most welcomed.

Thanks

Dave in Fl

 

The Arizona Delegate moved to Colorado, thank God and Grayhound for that ... He was a suck up and did not represent the wants of the shooters accordingly from what I have been told ... Hap or Roger would of been great Delegate and representative of the shooters but the Old Delegate was at the State shoot humping people's legs to get them to vote for his replacement ... I hope the good people of Colorado do not elect the Old Delegate from Arizona to represent them, because he won't ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Some Delegates have the interest of the shooters at heart, some are in it for their own gratification and the recognition the position brings. These that are in it for themselves will in most cases not even talk to the shooters they represent and this is very unfortunate.