No Love For Full Choke?

I have had my Mossberg 500 since I was 12 and I exclusively have used the full choke for trap shooting and all around fun shooting with shot and not a slug. Is it just me or does there seem to be a total dislike for the full choke for trap? All I ever hear about is the modified or improved cylinder. Anytime a full choke is mentioned, right away it gets chastised. Keep in mind I'm a casual. Not a part of no club or ATA or any other acronym I'm unaware of. Is there something I'm missing here because it certainly isn't the clays I smoke with the full choke?

 

IMO, probably more trap records were set with full choke guns then any other choke. Not counting the first shot in doubles.

 

Leo Harrison always shot a full choke, even at 16's and doubles when he was using an auto, either 1100 or 302. He may have went to a more open choke for the first shot of doubles after he went to his over/under. I shot full choke for years also but did go to open first shot in doubles after a few years. Full is good, you can tell where you're at on the bird by the break. High, low, ect. I don't like open choke. I tried a really open one a few times at 16's and though I broke the birds the poor hits and breaks drove me nuts. Brad

 

Maser, to answer your question, it is you. I, and most of the trapshooters posts that you have read on BOTH sites you frequent have never shown a "total dislike" for a full choke.

"ALL you ever hear about is a modified or IMPROVED CYLINDER?"

Me thinks you are taking a little fishing trip.
Not a problem, keep posting.
BTW, the pink hair you used on that other site looked better

 

A quote from Karla Harrison dated Dec. 2009.

"Yes, he (Leo) shoots his O/U, top barrel, full (.037 inches) constriction for singles. For doubles his first shot is .017 and the second shot is .037. He has a theory about how you need to learn to shoot a "hot core" and not rely on a big pattern. Leo shoots .045 constrictions in his handicap barrel."

 

Well, I'm glad to hear that full chokes do still get love. Maybe I hear it more often than I think, but there have been numerous times both online and in real life where I mention about being an exclusive full choke user and I get told that I'm handicapping myself by doing that. I've tried shooting from my cylinder bore 18.5" HD barrel and if you want to talk handicap, try something like that!

And Flyersarebest, you are mistaken about the pink hair. It was magenta and mauve, not pink.

 

FULL CHOKE is the only one you should use for singles and handicap

 

my 2 cents, I always liked a IM, so much talk about a mod. so tried it my scores went down changed over or back to the IM scores went right back up

 

I smell a graph coming.

 

The IM on my SX-1 barrel is .034. The FULL is .037 on the other. Big deal.

 

Oh man, we have to see a graph on the difference between those two. Somewhere around 140 pattern boards should just about do it.

 

We can only pine for one.

 

I have always been a "Full Choke" guy, never big on altering the chokes and do not care for choke tubes because they create mind games for some of us ... I was in the market for a Top Single combo set and the one a friend found for me had Wilkinson choke work done to the Top single ... I figured the most I could lose was what I paid for the set so I bought it ... I checked the Top Single with an it measured .740/ .031 which I thought was a little to open to my liking but it patterned a full choke pattern ... I took it to the pattern board to check for the Point of impact / Point of aim , and broke down and checked the pattern which turned out to shoot a nicer and tighter pattern than many of my other really full choke guns (.045 plus restriction) that I own ... The pattern was well distributed and had less of a Hot Spot but broke targets like you were hitting them with a Hammer (smoke) ... I am not big on patterning for anything other than point of impact, but can say different shells pattern differently sometimes a lot differently so choose wisely Grass Hopper, This was a visual check nothing more ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

shot his o/u, he's passed now.

 

Full is the only choke to use in handicap.
Anything from Light Mod to Mod to Imp Mod to Light Full to Full can be used for singles.
Really open chokes like Cylinder, Imp Cyl, or Skeet are probably too loose for the distances trap targets are normally shot at.

What the OP is seeing is that more and more trap shooters are coming to realize that not only is Full not necessary for 16 yard targets, it is only desirable for those few really, really good trapshooters who can center every target every time and the only challenge for them is how many smokeballs they can produce in a round.

The "any choke as long as it is Full" comes from fifty years ago when the same gun had to be used for singles and handicap targets. For those shooters who used the same gun/barrel/choke for both, accepting the limitations of Full for 16 yard targets was the price one had to pay to achieve maximum results on those 27 yard birds.

If you regularly go straight at trap, then you can get away with using excessively-tight chokes for close birds. The rest of us can use the help that Modified-type chokes can give.

 

Leo told me one time, " It doesn't matter what choke you shoot, as long as it's full."

 

I use Full choked guns only when I don't have a choice. Otherwise I use IM most of the time.

 

I shot my highest ATA Singles average 98.28 with a full choke in a K-80. Been shooting IM ever since but never matched that year. I usually suggest more choke-not less.

 

I also think its almost a mental issue for me, knowing I have IM, I think (wish) I'll pick up one extra bird with a slightly larger pattern. I really don't care it's a smoke or chip, a dead bird is a dead bird.

I know if I miss, I missed by feet, that extra inches in pattern doesn't really help much, but its there.

 

I doubt most good shooters miss by feet. Good shooters make it a habit of putting the load on the target under all circumstances. Big Leo was a master of subtle moves to a target making sure he was in the middle of it. The late Frank Little often stated he felt an occasional target he lost went through his pattern. It's not polite to argue with a trap God.

 

I agreed.

There're times I tried to find good excuses for my misses, but it all comes down to I missed it by inches from my barrel end (that's feet next to targets). The hand full of 100 straights I broke were all on very well regulated soft targets (2 hole). The range I mostly shot is known to throw wild skeet like targets left and right at different height, the best I ever got from there was 50.

 

While you can miss centering the target by a foot and still break it, put the bird an inch outside the pattern and you will have missed it....by an inch. Sometimes.....sometimes....sometimes an extra one or two inches of pattern radius is all it takes to turn an O into an X.

 

That's good advice if you shoot at the same level as Leo.

 

There is only one Choke (FULL ) = Shot String


GB....................................DLS

 

When Dan Orlich was asked, what choke did you use to have over 20 200x200 at the Grand, he replied ''Full''.

 

Using the same choke as Dan (or Leo) will not make you as good a shooter as Dan (or Leo).
Not any more than using the same brand of gun as Dan (or Leo) will make you as good a shooter as Dan (or Leo).

 

I bet you are correct, considering all of the Full choked Model 12's that were used for decades.

 

Man crush...

 

Maybe you should ask your wife?

 

Sheesh dawg. You mention that guy more than Winston says "graph". If my wife wasn't dead I am sure she would say "that guy loves that guy". Saying he is a "God"?

 

Sorry if I was a little rough on her.

 

Then why haven't you gone back to Full?? Something smells fishy.

 

Actually my SX-1 barrel I'm shooting today has .037 const. but marked IM. I'm not shooting it real bad either.

 

OLEO, have you measured your bore? Depending on bore diameter its not impossible the .037" constriction is in fact an IM. Larry

 

A .037" constriction is a .037" constriction regardless of the bore diameter.
That said, you are right that a .037" constriction on that barrel could indeed throw IM pattern percentages.

Again, oleo, if you shoot your best scores using a Full choke, why are you currently using IM chokes??
I don't understand....

 

My FULL choke SX-1 barrel is choked .039. My IM SX-1 barrel is choked .037. Mis-marked at the factory-who knows. My K-80 FULL choke tube measured .034. while the IM tube measured .026. Of course, those of us with a 31 year machine shop experience know that choke differences are measured between the bore diameter and choke constriction. So, if the bore diameter measures .725 and the choke measures .690 then the actual choke measures .035. See, wasn't that easy. All it takes is possession of a high quality bore measuring thingy. In the meantime. a difference of .002 is meaningless at best.
So,that particular K-80 barrel joined a group of barrels that was replaced by others with the hope of gaining one more target. As in many attempts to achieve greatness it joined a list of failed aspirations. My last K-80 broke every Singles target thrown at the PA State Shoot a few years ago. Sadly, I wasn't the one shooting it. My current K-80 resides safely in my gun safe after my realization that an old Winchester SX-1 is fully capable of breaking every target thrown and never worrying anyone would steal it off the gun rack. Darn lot lighter and much less recoil. What's not to like?

 

The choke rating of a barrel (fixed choking) or of a tube (choke tube) is ultimately not determined by ID deltas, but by the pattern that it throws. I take it that you have not patterned any of these barrels/tubes. So, no one really knows what patterns....Full, IM, XF, or Mod..... they throw. Am I correct?

You're telling us that every singles shooter at that state shoot took turns shooting the same gun? (That must have taken a LONG time.....) And that none of them missed??!! I'd like to see some documentation on that.

 

You might want Sir Neil with a chart and graph to chime in on that one. Some people spend too much time on a patterning board and not enough breaking targets. If my fellow shooters comment how nice my targets are smoking that's good enough for me. A perfect impact from a tight choke will suit many shooters. Finding that combination can be elusive.
You might want to check up on the record Larry Shade tied at the PA State Shoot by breaking all the program Singles a number of years ago-tuned by Wilkensen Yup, I was referring to owning that barrel but it was not the barrel I carried my highest Singles barrel ever with the FULL choke tube. By the way, a barrel that patterns 70% from 40 yards is considered a FULL choke. I doubt many barrels with over .030 const. and quality ammunition would fail that test.
Heck, I've broken 200's with barrels and guns that I no longer own. Don't question the 'dawg!

 

Several years ago I ended up with a Diamond Grade unsingle 101 with a .750" Baker barrel and one of his bore measuring "Thingies". I have measured numerous bores for folks looking for the "correct" choke size as per charts. Baker modified a standard Winchoke to .720" for this gun and it throws a very good pattern. The pattern board tells us the results of our choice but ID measurements let us know how much "squeeze" we are applying.....Larry

 

.030

 

YUP.............. Larry

 

Exactly what I was referring to.
That barrel would be choked Full, regardless of what is stamped on it.

 

Put in a full choke and forget about it!

 

Over time I have become "choked" with chokes....... tried a bunch and for the most part all did just what they were supposed to......whether or not I did........ finally found out my 1100 Competition produces best with an "extra full" my 101DG likes the .030" and my 1964 1100 trap is just great with whatever it is as it does not have a choke system...... I do find though that on warm days with no wind the "gotta go to the range and test chokes" is a really good story to justify taking the gun and the dog out for "testing"...................... Larry

 

Started shooting in the 60's with a full choke model 12 -- then came the hot 1100 auto -- then came the dedicated trap gun with adjustable comb and how about a adjustable butt plate -- don't forget about adding that recoil adjustable butt plate -- OOO all those choke tubes had to be upgraded to extended tubes -- Dug out that old MODEL 12 FULL CHOKE AND IT STILL BROKE 25 STRAIGHT. -- no mind blur which choke -- comb spacer -- What coat I am wearing to screw up my length of pull -- JUST WENT OUT AND BROKE BIRDS -- and had fun -- We really over think way to much in this sport!!!

 

And you know you'd have done the same thing if it was a fixed Modified choke, don't you.

 

I shoot .030 which is I believe light full for everything. I may pick up a .035 too.

 

One reason Leo (and me) liked full choke gun was that you could tell what part of the target you were hitting by the way the pieces flew after the hit. If they went up you are under the target, down you were above, left and right so on. I think new shooters should always use a full. Maybe experienced shooters more open but never new shooters, shoot full.

 

You are 100% right --The key work is fixed -- Just one less thing to think about -- My memory isn't as good as it once was. but I can't remember any of the old squad shooting anything but a fixed full choke.

 

If that were possible (reading target breaks), then the same "reads" could be had when breaking the same targets with a Modified choke. The pieces don't know what the constriction was that the pellets went through. They also don't know how many pellets they were hit with.
New shooters need the extra pellets in the 'outer ring', since that's what they hit the target with most often...not the center hot core.

 

That's because when you shot trap with one gun that had a fixed choke....back in the day before choke tubes came into widespread use..... you had no choice but to shoot a Full choke. Not because it was the best for both caps and singles, but because you HAD to have it for caps and it would still break singles targets when it was pointed perfectly.
The only other option was a Modified fixed choke, which will smoke singles targets with authority, but has a good chance of NOT putting enough shot on the birds when shot from the 27.
Guys back then had to choose the lessor of two evils. Not so today when we can change chokes quickly and cheaply between events. Take advantage of new technology, my friend. You don't still shoot black powder shells, do you?

By the way, Brad, Neil Winston demonstrated quite conclusively awhile back that you cannot reliably "read" target breaks with his high-speed videos. Not with Modified chokes, not with Full chokes, not with any chokes. About all you can conclude from breaks is that you broke it or you didn't.

 

BTW, The problem with the above statement about reading the breaks and Winston telling you it doesn't work?

Dysinger was right in his ASSessment of winston.

 

It wasn't what Winston said, it was what the videos he took proved. I don't take anyone's word for anything without careful scrutiny.

 

As Paul Purdam always told me, "any choke will do for trap, 'long as it's full".......

 

No offense but how the hell can you measure a .037 if you don't measure the bore diameter? 'The choke is measured against the bore diameter.
This is nonsensical.

 

No more confused than me.

 

Many assume a bore diameter and since the choke is marked .700 or some such thing think they know constriction. Measure the bore, measure the choke, do the math....... not confusing at all. I have a Stan Baker bore gauge and take it to the range regularly so folks can determine actual constriction. Larry

 

Does length of pull have any thing to do with it, it should you know ..????? WPT … (YAC) …

 

The shorter the pull, the tighter the choke?? Larry

 

Hmm. I don't recall the choke diameters being marked on a barrel in my rather extensive group of shotguns. There is usually a designation like a * or F of Full to designate a factory "full" but I have not seen a number.
I just assumed if someone stated the constriction in their barrel in specific thousandths they had a bore gauge and knew how to use it.
And Larry, like you, I carry one in my shooting bag (and leave my Stan Baker at home in its box).

 

Yup....... My Carlson have diameters on them, my Winchoke (for the Diamond Grade) have stars, my pro-bore for the 1100 Competition have "Full" etc plus the measurement...... My old 1100's (64 and 65) just say full.
Just got back from the range and my friends old Browning A5 (with screw in chokes) has a choke with stars (probably a Winchoke) indicating a full choke......... bore measures .735 and choke measures .715 so only a .020 restriction... He is going to do some shopping....... Larry