Delegate doesn't have to answer - Outgoing OSTA President Real Property Committee question 2017

Yes indeed, once again these answers are apparently not for the general membership.

As once state to ME:

We tell the General membership on a "Need To Know" basis.

Sounds like this just happened again.

Gives one a warm and fuzzy feeling to be a member, doesn't it ???

 

The ATA was formed and founded on and as an Organization based on Integrity, Sportsmanship, and caring for ones fellow man (or woman) by doing things to better the organization for one and all ... The ATA has become much like the Swamp that President Trump is in the process of draining and it needs to be drained and or the officers eliminated for the betterment of the Organization ... There have been numerous changes that only benefit the "Good Ol' Boys" (ED, EC, as well as many on the BOD ) and to hell with the members, this has to be changed and the cash cow needs to be eliminated from any farther existence ... Greed and corruption has become the normal operation of the new and improved ATA ... There is little to no respect left for those elected who sit on their hands and do nothing but wait in line for their chance at a new gun and vote in favor of those bottom feeders who are in charge as they suck it dry ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

At the meeting where this came up, did anyone think to read the By-laws and seek guidance there?

 

Do we have any concerned attorneys in our ranks. Many of the law firms do pro-bono work. The attitude of the folks running the ATA seems to need an adjustment. We need delegates with some back bone to either straighten out the organization or dump the inept leaders. When people of little abilities, get a lot of power, one must be very wary of their actions. This organization needs a new set of bylaws, the members must have oversight of their organization. Or just start a new one and have the assets of the old one go to charity of the memberships choosing. Roger C.

 

N1H1, Good idea. To bad none of the delegates thought of it. It seems they only do what they are told to do. Roger C.

 

N1H1

Are you saying the OSTA officials should have sought help with the by-laws? Which by-laws are you referring to....? OSTA or ATA? And in what areas?

This sounds like "group think".

Als0, how many members were in attendance?

 

A private meeting? Something along the lines of the infamous Bill Clinton/ Attorny General Loretta Lynch meeting on the tarmack thing?

 

butterly, at the end of the on-line ATA rulebook is a section "ATA By-laws." The answer to the original question is there.

The required Annual Meeting at the State Shoot of every state, province, and foreign association is well worth attending. It's where any individual member can have his or her say. It's where you vote, too.

 

That was the required annual meeting at the state shoot. Except you don't get your say or answer.

 

Did the delegate say the repairs would be done by the grand?

 

That seemed to be the purpose of the delegates report. The repairs or improvements will be done before the GAH.

 

Following are pictures from the OSTA meeting.

One of the forum favorites Tonya Bluhm. (below)







Dick Barhorst above sitting beside Tonya. Dick resigned.



OSTA delegate above right and below after being asked about E. D. Gipson spending monies at the WSRC to fix state owned property.



On another note a member brought up the possibility of having a AAA classification at the OSTA State Championships. It was taken under advisement.

 

The ATA is a runaway train in more ways than one, there are not enough people to stop or even slow them down ... If the Majority of the remaining membership protested and stayed away from registered shooting long enough to hurt them there might be an outside chance some things would get changed or the ATA would dry up and blow away once they have emptied the bank accounts and eliminated the investments ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Well, what expenses has the ATA paid to maintain the facility? Not doubting it, just don't recall having seen that info here. Knowing what they did could help to answer the question.

Honestly, I'd expect the Delegate's best response would be that he would have to check on it and get back to you after he had info, unless this is something large enough that it would have come to his attention already.

 

OK, Joe, I see now that your question was in response to the delegates report made at that meeting, not something posted here earlier.

 

The cost of operation of the WSRC was costing the State of Illinois a little over 3 million dollars per year, this was 2 , maybe 3 years ago so cost has probably gone up since then ... The facility was generating right at 1.1 million per year (not the 20/30 million that the Talking Head (Lynn Gipson) broadcast in his pep talks ) which left the State eating almost 2 million per year added to the deficit, plus additional repair from ageing ... The Delegates play dumb of else they are not getting told the facts "Jack" ... The State of Illinois as of today has a 33.3 billion dollar deficit and has the lowest credit rating of any state ever ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I think it is time to Invite the IRS To Investigate the ATA Dealings in ALL MONETYARY Spending, to be sure OUR ATA is legally a Not For Profit Organization, I saw some Irregularities in Report of Copies of IRS Forms Posted, Especially no Expense Reports on BOD, EC, and Central Handicap Committee, and Office personnel, just to name a few

Gary Bryant.....................................Dr.longshot

 

Gary, if you are talking about the 990 info posted by HB, what irregularities are you referring to?

 

Gary, you have to realize the IRS does not require as much disclosure as I believe you are expecting. You have to read the instructions carefully to determine what those schedules are supposed to report, it is not always clear from the headings on the forms themselves.

 

Please do not upset "Bat/N1H1" by not using the correct "invitation" form, based on their opinion of your "intent" .....

Maybe Form 13909 ..... https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf "Tax-Exempt Organization Complaint" ..... from https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/divulge_all_suspected_tax_exempt_status_abuses_to_the_irs.pdf ..... "Tell the IRS about Suspected Tax Exempt Status Abuses", "Go ahead and complain. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) is all ears – particularly about complaints alleging any abuse of the tax-exempt status granted to a non-profit organization." https://www.irs.gov/uac/irs-complaint-process-for-tax-exempt-organizations ..... https://www.irs.gov/uac/examination-and-compliance-check-processes-for-exempt-organizations ..... or,

Maybe Form 3949-A ..... https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf ..... "suspect or know of an individual or a business that is not complying with the tax laws on issues such as:" "False Exemptions or Deductions", "Kickbacks", "False/Altered Document", "Failure to Pay Tax", "Unreported Income", "Organized Crime", "Failure to Withhold" ..... from https://www.irs.gov/individuals/how-do-you-report-suspected-tax-fraud-activity ..... Say you "suspect or know of an individual or a business" ..... that gets around 200k-ish a year, and may be giving "Kickbacks" .....

You can use form 211 https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f211.pdf ... if someone would like a possible "award" from the "whistleblower award program".

 

User 1 I like what you told Gary, my only thought is the Organized Crime one. I'll agree that the way the EC runs the ATA is a crime but from what I know of them they are so so far from organized. Brad

 

The member turn up is abysmal. We have wondered how to get the attendance rates up, any suggestions will be welcome. Unfortunately, we feel the membership in general does not care. Thank you for all who attended and all who came up to me with their thoughts.

Also, a few of these pictures are from last years meeting. Dick did not attend the meeting, and John Mueller was to my left and Courtney Haning to my right.

I think we had a great shoot, except for Thursday with the weather.

Thanks for supporting our shoot!

Tonya Bluhm

 

Personally, I think we need some Ladies running the ATA, clean the swamp type of thing and get rid of the trash ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The gun clubs barely have representatives show up, but those would be the most of the audience. A handful of regular members. Love the quote on apathy. TRUE!

I hope I can speak for all our directors and say we really try to run the best shoot we can.

Thanks!

 

Tonya, thanks for clarifying the error in the picture. That picture is John Mueller from the Northwest Zone with Tonya. Although, Tonya, I was in attendance at the meeting and yes I did resign my position on the board.

 

Be careful what you wish for. I have personal experience with an organization that lost their tax exempt status. IRS came in and seized everything. For ATA that would mean hall of fame items.

 

oldskt94, If that is what it takes to clean out a rats nest, then so be it. Then a new start would be in order. The ATA does not own all of the items in the hall of fame many are on loan as I understand it. Maybe it should end while there are enough members to pick up the pcs. ROGER C.

 

I don't have a dog in the IRS issue but the HOF and ATA are separate entities. N1H1 and History Buff would be persons to refer to.

I love trap shooting. The initials are not important.

 

Nice post "N1H1" ..... Are things a little slow in the back-yard proving grounds ???????

IF the "IRS" ever takes an interest in the "ATA", you may be able to hire an unemployed assistant for much less than the 200k-ish per year that the "ATA" is paying .....

 

Gary, what irregularities did you notice in regard to the "expense reports" (not really sure what that means in regard to the 990 pages you were seemingly referring to) ? How do you define an "irregularity" on the 990...based on what you think should be there, or how the IRS says to complete the form? You made a statement about irregularities in the "expense reports" of the 2015 990 HB posted, and call for an investigation, but I'm not sure you have any basis for that. I'm not even sure what you mean by "expense reports" because there are none in a 990. I can only guess that you are referring to the section on compensation of officers, directors etc?

 

Gee "Bat" ..... the "IRS" says the "basis" to "call for an investigation" needs to ONLY be "Suspected Tax Exempt Status Abuses" ..... https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/divulge_all_suspected_tax_exempt_status_abuses_to_the_irs.pdf

And lowers the "bar" even more with "Go ahead and complain" https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/divulge_all_suspected_tax_exempt_status_abuses_to_the_irs.pdf

You may want to relax ..... unless you think opening the "can of worms" could support "Suspected Tax Exempt Status Abuses" .....

 

I didn't see you, I apologize for my error.

 

I think this will be a big year for the OSTA. It is a new year. Keep the communication lines open. No changes in the future on the delegate level. Although I am hoping we could have a visit from the Ohio delegate. I have sent many unanswered emails. I do not expect that to change.

One of the next order of business after the question to the delegate was nominations for delegate. Lack of preparation on my part. Apathy creates apathy.

Note to Tonya: You are doing your part! Thanks

 

Bat I am referring to Expense reports for each shoot the BOD, EC, And Central Hdcp Committee attended, and the Grand Total of each expense for the Year, and total shoots attended.

The Form where these expenses are shown.

Gary Bryant....................................DLS

 

Gary, my point is that the 990 does not contain a schedule showing "Expense Reports" as you are expecting, and you go out on a limb and call it an irregularity without taking the time to understand what the schedules on the 990 are supposed to show? Nowhere on a 99o is an entity asked to show reimbursements for expenses under an accountable plan, especially broken out in the detail you post above. You might wish it asked for that information, but it does not, and it isn't accurate for you to make a statement that it is an irregularity.

It does show what I assume is the President's gun, since that is compensation.

I thought from some of your past posts that you had already filed some of those complaint forms with the IRS. Merlo will likely be coming up with some paperwork on that eventually. Maybe they move slower than the attorney general, which we have not heard much about after that initial flurry.

 

Question for anyone from the OSTA Board. If your members are not permitted to ask the delegate a question at the regularly scheduled meeting when the delegate gives his report then when can the questions be asked?

 

It was suggested at the meeting to correspond with either the ATA delegate or through the president to arrange a meeting. As I am not sure if the delegate has the answer already, I would suggest a written question to the president, who could pass it along and hopefully be researched and answered to your liking.

 

With all due respect, it is a Delegate's duty to take time to listen to his/her fellow shooters' opinions and questions. Most often a good Delegate can offer acceptable reasoning for decisions made by shoot management, the State Association, ATA, etc. When questions arise that a Delegate is unaware of or cannot answer, they are responsible to require an answer from the source and report back to the shooter with the question.

It should never be a requirement or even a suggestion for anyone to submit a written inquiry to your State Delegate via your State Association President.

In my opinion, it was the Delegate's responsibility to offer a response, not the OSTA President. A straightforward answer to the question would be proper and if the Delegate was unable to answer because they did not have the information, a simple "I don't have answer the question but I'll get one from the ATA E. D. and get back with you."

Now, at this point, in hearing the question asked during the meeting a few weeks ago, the OSTA Delegate should have taken it upon himself to obtain an answer and reported back to the person making the query.

Every Delegate, as an ATA Board of Director, should be interested in the question posed above. If you are not . . . . . . please hand in your hat.

HB

 

Tonya, Your answer is way off base. Please describe, what is the purpose of a meeting of shooters, and delegates? Is it not for the transfer of information from shooter to delegate, and from delegate to shooter? The written request is just another way of avoiding the issues. Roger C.

 

You got it ... Big time ... That's part of the problem, not the cure ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I did not read Tonya's answer as being an "opinion from her". I read it as more of her explaining the position of the president's response. We need Tonya.

Tonya has a made a statement as to the importance of having members at the meetings asking questions and becoming involved.

 

FG, I only read her words, no way of knowing her thoughts. I understand she is one of the good (guys). On here every one should be very specific as to the content of their statements. Thanks for the clarification F.G. Roger C.

 

The Elected officials of any organization are or should be the mouth piece for those who elected them as well as those who did not ... I have a problem with anyone (Elected) wanting to be contacted by a letter, note, etc, because those can be ignored if in fact the elected official does not want to answer that particular question for any reason ... I take Tonya's answer on face value, any and all questions deserve and answer due to concern or it would not of been asked ... Tonya's reputation is as good as it can get, but can get tarnished in a hurry if certain things are avoided when it comes to answers ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

When I was asked to be on the OSTA board and said yes I told everyone at my first meeting that at some time or other I was sure to piss all of them off because I was going to do what I thought right for trap shooters of Ohio and wouldn't let friendships or the fact that I new you stop that.

When I was the Tournament Director my philosophy was if it made me mad when I was shooting don't do it and most important RULES are the same for everyone and give them an answer or reason why I made the decision. Always follow the rule book and make no exceptions. A shooter may be upset but the RULE book is always the right answer. Also it pays to not be a jerk and talk to everyone you meet at the shoot to find out what they think and are talking about.

I think just say you don't know if you don't know. "I don't care" never goes over well. Brad

 

HB:

"With all due respect, it is a Delegate's duty to take time to listen to his/her fellow shooters' opinions and questions."

The fact:

"Section 2: Duties.

The Board of Directors shall have the duty to outline and put in force

the General Policy of the Amateur Trapshooting Association, designating

the time, place, and Rules of all registered tournaments and registered club

shoots, prescribing all championship requirements, allotting, donating and

distributing all trophies, cash contributions for competitive trapshooting under

such conditions and at such times and places as it in its judgment may deem

best for the sport. It shall have the duty, specifically, to see that the property,

business, and assets of the Amateur Trapshooting Association are efficiently

managed to the best interest of this Corporation."

While the Delegate certainly should do as HB suggests, it is not strictly his or her "duty" to do so.

N1H1

 

Hey N1H1 ..... THIS " It shall have the duty, specifically, to see that the property, business, and assets of the Amateur Trapshooting Association are efficiently managed to the best interest of this Corporation.", IS A DUTY .....

The PROBLEM is, WHO "they" think is the "Corporation" ..... 1745 "shooters" in BFE ..... IS NOT the "Corporation".

 

N1H1, You have been in the drivers seat of the ATA. Do you honestly believe that the organization now is being managed with the well being of the members in the forefront? They are never informed about what is going to be, or being changed until it happens. Most of the delegates either do not know what they are supposed to do, or they just do not care. I joined the ATA in I believe 1974. Never have I seen an attempt by the BOD to poll the members on anything pertaining to the direction of the organization. They just seem to blunder from one mistaken action to another. Many poor decisions backed up by poor attempts to cover up the blunder, it just keeps adding up to where we are today. The outlook for the future of ATA is not good. Failure of management to keep ahead of the times is the death knell of many large organizations. Look at Sears, Kmart, they are good examples of business that failed the old saying. If you are not moving ahead you are falling behind. There is no such thing as standing still. I hope it is not to late for our sport to survive into the future. Roger C.

 

N1H1 you quoted History Buff

and said the following:

The question posed to the delegate was about the management of property and assets. It was also on the eve of an election. As HB stated, the delegate had the duty to answer the questions. They were about the delegate's incomplete and misleading report. The question was way over the head of the president and the delegate. The delegate had the duty as you described to know that answer.

I have sent many emails to the delegate. Almost nothing in return.

 

Sure HB wrote that, FG, but it's not true. Read the By-Laws. It says nothing about answering anyone's questions.

N1H1

 

Finally a graph, or is it a chart? No matter thank you User 1 (this is the first time I've actually seen a photo of one being made). Brad

 

The by laws say nothing about answering questions but since there was a delegate's report and the president said "any questions" you may think we were invited to ask questions. The president must have meant any questions for the delegate about something other than managing property or other assets.

The delegate is elected. The implication implies he will be running for election. Elections have voters. Voters ask questions. But in Ohio we must not have had a delegate. We had a king. No questions.

We can extend the silly narrative that "it is not in the by-laws" further. It does not say the president shall allow the delegate to answer nor do the by-laws say he shall push the delegate behind his skirt. The by-laws do not say the delegate is a King.

But we know now.....In Ohio "NO QUESTIONS!" The delegate is a King.

 

Do you know what the duties of the Real Property Committee are? I posted a link to them, writing:

"At the meeting where this came up, did anyone think to read the By-laws and seek guidance there?"

N1H1

 

I am aware of the duties. i asked the question.

Please tell us how acquiring property regardless of method, lease purchase etc, could involve the Real Property Committee.

 

Just read it, for heaven's sake!

 

I read it. The question to the delegate was whether they needed to be contacted. How much was being spent? Is it over the threshold required by the by-laws?

A delegate should know this?

 

Well, did they need to be contacted? Why or why not? It's right there in front of you!

N1H1

 

That would depend on the amount spent for improvements. I do not have that amount.

 

No. That's only part of what it depends on. Come on, FG, read it!

N1H1

 

N1H1....enlighten me further. Tell us why the real property committee did not have to be contacted. Or tell us why they were. It is the question posed to the delegate.

 

You do it. OK, it will disclose that you had (and apparently still have) no idea how any of this works and make it look like you went into both this thread and that meeting without reading up on anything, but that's the price for telling people here the truth.

N1H1

 

Really? Your arrogance is off the chart today?

Tell us sir why the Real Property Committee did not have to be contacted. Tell us how much Gipson is spending on improvements. Tell us they did not know the expenses they were to absorb in the maintenance of the property and the new lease or MOU.

What is the yearly dollar amount? What will the amount be for the life of the lease?

Tell us however you want. Charts and graphs would be fine. But saying to the masses we are too dumb to ask a question or read the bylaws used to be below you. Or better yet....run for delegate in Ohio.

 

You won't admit it, will you?

N1H1

 

To answer a persons question would fall in the common courtesy column if it is not so stated in the By-Laws that it would be part of an elected officials duties ... The member having cause to ask the question would have to give a logical person the idea there is a cause for concern or it never would of been asked ... The ATA has become a Cash Cow that breeds contempt for the elected officials and appointees made by them ... The Members deserve answers to any and all questions not only the selected ones an elected official wants to answer ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Family Guy be careful or you will have n1h1 go into his stutter typing mode and then things will go downhill in a hurry! If a question is asked shouldn't a cordial answer be expected? If the answer isn't known shouldn't it be stated along with I or we will try to get an answer for you instead of just rudely dismissing the person who asked the question as someone who's stature is below needing to know. Sounds to me like a democratic strategy meeting and the fake news. Just my opinion.

Dave Berlet

 

My response was not to avoid the issue, it was to clarify what I felt was said at the meeting. Sometimes our memories are clouded by what we "think" we hear based on our position. For me, the written question also takes out the emotions, and clearly states what is being asked.

 

Dear N1H1,

Forgive my tardiness in responding to your post N1H1, but I’ve been extremely busy painting the exterior of my house. While I haven’t found this requirement in any homeowner’s manual, I felt it my duty as a home owner. For the record, I’m well into the second coat with a 2 ½” Purdy XL brush.

I also had 9 trees felled and dealt with the cleanup myself in order to save money. I also considered it my duty to take on this responsibility so that huge dead branches would not fall and injure anyone or damage cars that often park below.

Another important duty with greater import than paint or trees caused me to postpone my work. I felt it was the duty for this grand-pop to accept a request from his 10 year old Cub Scout grandson to camp out with him and other scouts at a Boy Scout camp in Virginia.

Now, you won’t find these duties written on paper anywhere and certainly some folks may not view them them as duties like I do. However, my use of the word does not make my statement "not true" as you have suggested. For I believe like many other ATA members, to include some Delegates, that it is a duty of ATA Delegates to communicate with ATA members and I hope to prove my contention.

I am glad to see that you are in agreement that delegate should communicate with those he/she represents.

“While the Delegate certainly should do as HB suggests, it is not strictly his or her "duty" to do so.”
N1H1

So, your disagreement centers on my use and/or suggested misunderstanding or maybe intentional dishonest use of the word duty.

Let’s see if I am able to clear that up for you. I don’t dispute that the duty to communicate with others is not specifically expressed in the ATA By-laws, and in fact I never mentioned the ATA Bylaws. My claim came from my understanding of the meaning of the word duty, as derived and supported by written references from a variety dictionaries and other sources.

Duty (from "due" meaning "that which is owing"; Old French: deu, did, past participle of devoir; Latin: debere, debitum, whence "debt") is a term that conveys a sense of moral commitment or obligation to someone or something.

DUTY
ˈd(y)o͞odē

noun

1. a moral or legal obligation; a responsibility.
"it's my duty to uphold the law"

synonyms:
responsibility, obligation, commitment;

2. a task or action that someone is required to perform.
"the queen's official duties"

synonyms:
job, task, assignment, mission, function, charge, place, role, responsibility, obligation;

Merriam-Webster
Definition of duty

plural
duties

1. 1: conduct due to parents and superiors : respectfilial duty and obedience — John Locke

2. 2a : obligatory tasks, conduct, service, or functions that arise from one's position (as in life or in a group) was his duty to support his family Her primary duty at the meeting was to take attendance. performs a variety of administrative duties b (1) : assigned service or business was put on kitchen duty jury duty (2) : active military service returning from duty overseas (3) : a period of being on duty report for duty at 7 a.m.

3. 3a : a moral or legal obligation felt it was their duty to helpb : the force of moral obligation will be ready when duty calls

4. 4:tax; especially : a tax on imports a 15 percent duty

5. 5a : work 1ab (1) : the service required (as of an electric machine) under specified conditions (2) : functional application : use got double duty out of the trip (3) : use as a substitute making the word do duty for the thing — Edward Sapir

Dictionary.com
noun, plural duties.

1. something that one is expected or required to do by moral or legal obligation.

2. the binding or obligatory force of something that is morally or legally right; moral or legal obligation.

3. an action or task required by a person's position or occupation; function:
the duties of a clergyman.

MORAL OBLIGATION. A duty which one owes, and which he ought to perform, but which he is not legally bound to fulfill. These obligations are of two kinds 1st. Those founded on a natural right; as, the obligation to be charitable, which can never be enforced by law.

Noun

1. moral obligation - an obligation arising out of considerations of right and wrong; "he did it out of a feeling of moral obligation"


duty, obligation, responsibility - the social force that binds you to the courses of action demanded by that force; "we must instill a sense of duty in our children"; "every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity, an obligation; every possession, a duty"- John D.Rockefeller Jr

I’m uncertain of your intent and truly hope it is not an attempt to discredit me. Rather, I’d like to believe you simply chose to focus on one meaning for the word duty rather than think of all the others, i.e. moral duty, sense or feeling of duty, a task or work, obligation, responsibility, etc., of which do not have to be legal forms of duty. I take great care to always promote the truth . . . . my integrity depends on this.

So, when dictionary definitions assure me that I am permitted to associate “duty” with something that one is expected to do, or required to do by either moral or legal obligation, I accept that I am correctly using the word and have not be untruthful as you have implied.

I maintain the position, delegates duties are many; of which not all are confined to what is penned on paper or contained in bylaws. Therefore, I simply cannot agree with you N1H1 that a delegate’s duties are only the ones expressed in written rules.

A short story:

I recall some years ago, a gentleman seeking support for his election for ATA State Delegate. In gaining support in the form of votes, he was obliged to speak with resident shooters and to communicate his position on the issues of the time. Like most Delegates running for the office, he believed, if elected, he would be representing the shooters as well as his State Association. In other words, he would make decisions in the best interests of trapshooting within his State.

After his election, he focused on his duties according to the ATA Bylaws. He learned the ATA insisted that his duty was to the ATA and this duty was superior to all other duties and interests to his State Association and shooters he represented.

​

But his, State Association by-laws required his allegiance to the association and members.

​

I stated above, “I maintain the position, delegates duties are many; of which not all are confined to what is penned on paper or contained in bylaws.” And I consider one of those duties - communicating with others.

Shall we look at an easy to find Delegate duty that does not appear in the Bylaws?

​

The above is from the 2015 Grand American Handicap program, page 14.

Now if someone says they know of Delegates who skipped this assigned duty opting to go to dinner instead of helping . . . . . you'll find no argument here.

Great advise from the ATA rule book:

“Selection of the State or Provincial Delegate, and the Alternate Delegate(s) should be given the utmost consideration.

Delegates (or in their absence Alternate Delegates), in a properly called meeting, constitute the Board of Directors of the ATA and as such have the responsibility of overseeing the operation of the Association.

Only those persons who are responsible dedicated individuals should be considered.”

​

In closing, any ATA Delegate who does not feel a sense of duty to subject themselves to open discussions with the shooters of his/her State or Province . . . . . . well, I’ve already said what I think you should do with your hat.

HB

 

HB, to suggest my citation of the actual By-law recitation of the duties of the BOD is "dishonest" is uncalled for.

Here is the text:

"Section 2: Duties.

The Board of Directors shall have the duty to outline and put in force the General Policy of the Amateur Trapshooting Association, designating the time, place, and Rules of all registered tournaments and registered club shoots, prescribing all championship requirements, allotting, donating and distributing all trophies, cash contributions for competitive trapshooting under such conditions and at such times and places as it in its judgment may deem best for the sport. It shall have the duty, speci cally, to see that the property, business, and assets of the Amateur Trapshooting Association are ef ciently managed to the best interest of this Corporation. "

You make up a bunch of duties that are not there. Your worst assertion is that that state delegate is held to the state association's view of where his or her loyalties must lie.

The position of Delegate is an ATA position, not a state position. He or she works for the ATA corporation, not the state corporation. If he or she finds the two in conflict, I guess resignation is a recourse, as is his replacement at the next state annual meeting. Doing the job elected to is another possible course, of course. And this is I have seen them doing for thirty years.

N1H1

 

Thanks N1H1 ..... Keep the faith .....

 

N1H1,
Am I correct in my interpetation of your answer? The state members elect the delegate, but he is not able to carry out the wishes of the members that elected him to represent them at ATA meetings? He must carry out the directives of the ATA , if he has a conflict between their wishes and the state members, he should resign, so someone else can do the bidding of the ATA. Am I correct in my assumption? Roger C.

 

No, of course not, Roger.

Having been on both sides for more than two decades, your idea that the ATA has "directives" is the sort of nonsense I expect from only your AZ compatriot. The delegates I've known just vote as they think is best for the ATA, as it their duty. Often I disagree with them, but that does not mean they are wrong or crooked, or forced to do one thing or another. I never doubt the fact they they are doing that they "think is right."

"He must carry out the directives of the ATA , if he has a conflict between their wishes and the state members, he should resign, so someone else can do the bidding of the ATA. Am I correct in my assumption?"

Are your really that dense? Read what I wrote!

"If he or she finds the two in conflict, I guess resignation is a recourse, as is his replacement at the next state annual meeting. Doing the job elected to is another possible course, of course."

I never said he or she should resign. Certainly, if he or she ran under a false flag, either not knowing or not making clear that it an ATA, not state office, then, being caught at misrepresentation, the honorable thing to do is resign and make room for someone who make his or her loyalties clear. But the choice remains to carry out the duties is office requires. That way, the state can, at the next annual meeting, replace him or her with someone who does not know or will not tell the voters the sole requirement of the job.

N1H1

 

Damn Roger ..... I think N1H1 just insulted you .....

FWIW, I read this the same way you do .....

 

N1H1, I did pass the course in reading comprehension. You suggested the delegate could resign if he was not in compliance with ATA agendas. If the delegates job is an ATA office, why not just appoint them instead of electing them in state. If a poll was run I would bet that a majority of members think their delegate's job is to represent them and their ideas to the ATA.
I may be a little dense, but not to the point of just rubber stamping the actions of the ATA and their past officials. Evil will persist when men of honor do nothing . Why the big rush to follow the bylaws and rules of the ATA, it has never bothered our directors to subvert them before. I know you would not condone not following the bylaws, but some of the others may.
So in other words, the delegate does not have to respond to the people that elected him as their representative. His job is to give his guidance to the ATA leaders. Once elected he has no allegance to the state he represents, he is an ATA operative. This seems like a very good example of the blind leading the blind. No wonder the organization is on a down hill slide. Roger C.
PS Who sets up the agenda that the delegates are ask to vote on in the meetings?

 

PS Who sets up the agenda that the delegates are asked to vote on in the meetings ? (Quote Roger)

Roger ,
I have been told by many who were once delegates that they are not asked to vote in favor of anything in particular, they are told to do so or else ... I avoid talking to or even thinking about N1H1 because he feels he has the answers to any and everything ... If he cannot present reason and get you believe his BS, he will make a chart or graph and prove to you his BS is right ... The current ED, EC, and many of the BOD are corrupt and that is not where it started, its the way they were taught by those before them ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

N1H1

Lets assume you believe your obligations are/were to the best interest of the corporation.

So did taking the Sport out of trapshooting give you the results you desired? Was it the best for the corporation? Is this the outcome you wanted? You were given that lifetime achievement award by the State of MN for being instrumental in this endeavor.

High points were; Jim Bradford, past ATA President, and Neil were able to get the misfire rule changed, and Neil was instrumental in getting the 3-hole target rule rescinded. ..MN HOF Induction

How do you feel about it now?

If you made a graph showing the rise or fall of trapshooting as it relates to your decisions for the corporation or trapshooting what would it look like? Would you be proud of those numbers?

Did you feel no interest in answering to the State of MN. They gave you the lifetime achievement award for making the targets easier. You listened to them?

 

"N1H1" is off doing some "studying" .....



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

and ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_graph

 

I appears N1H1 has again misconstrued my comments.

I made no such claim. My claim was that not all duties have been committed to written form. Here's what I said:

I was merely offering some possible reasons as to why N1H1 might be in disagreement with my use of the word duty.

1. maybe N1Hi thought I misunderstood the true meaning of the word.
2. maybe N1H1 thought I was being dishonest in suggesting a broader use (supported by dictionaries) of the word.

N1H1 goes on to suggest I was incorrect to say that not all duties of delegates are contained within the by-laws. Hopefully N1H1 will explain why he believes Delegates should communicate with ATA members within his jurisdiction, but that they are not required to. I say its an unwritten moral duty and I'll bet most people would agree with me.

And once again N1H1 misinterprets my statements regarding the relationship between State Associations and their elected Delegate.

I'm sorry that N1H1 has once again completely misunderstood my comment regarding the allegiance of ATA Delegates. I never said Delegates were mandated to hold and carry out their respective associations view and must only be loyal to them, because that would be untrue. Those were N1H1's words.

The implication I made was that most ATA members, and even new Delegates believe ATA Delegates have some allegiance to the members who elected them, and to their State or Provincial Association. That was the intent of my "A short story" in post #72. And I explained that a Delegate's allegiance is first and foremost to the ATA, our sport's governing body.

N1H1 said:

Of course the Delegate position is an ATA position. But, I also showed bylaws explaining that it is also a State Association position since Delegates are usually State/Provincial Association voting directors. The ATA is the governing body of trapshooting and all State and Provincial Associations affiliated with the ATA agreed to submit to the jurisdiction of the ATA and the ATA's charter, by-laws and official rules and regulations. But N1H1 is incorrect to believe Delegates do not also work for their State/Provincial association and I submit it is acceptable and permitted by the ATA so long as their work and decisions do not conflict with the ATA's jurisdictional purview and the rights of ATA members. The ATA has always maintained the position that State/Provincial Associations were free to establish their own rules and regulations and exercise self-governance . . . again, as long as it did not conflict with the ATA's controlling rules.

I stand on my previous below statement. Feel free to disagree but I don't think we'll ever see or hear a Delegate openly tell ATA members that they don't have any obligation to interact with those who put them in office and therefore the conversation is over before it began. Any Delegate who holds that view must be voted out of office during the next annual meeting.

In summary,

1. The ATA is the governing and controlling body.

2. Delegates are obliged to vote their conscience in the best interests of the ATA.

3. Delegate decisions are usually also in the best interests of their State/Provincial Association and members.

4. State and Provincial Associations are permitted to use verbiage in their by-laws requiring the ATA Delegate to conduct business in the best interests of their respective Associations, but it must also be in the best interests of the ATA.

5. Any Delegate who refuses to communicate with any ATA member is not acting in the best interests of the ATA, State/Provincial Association or their members, and should be removed from office.

HB

 

N1H1 said: ↑
The position of Delegate is an ATA position, not a state position. He or she works for the ATA corporation, not the state corporation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well Hell.....

Here all along I thought when I voted for a delegate that He/She would represent my wishes, and those of the majority of their State Members.

Now I am confused. (More than normal)

 

Neil, Why did you not respond to my question as to who sets up the agenda that the delegates are ask to vote on? I'm waiting for a reply. Roger C.

 

N1H1 Previously stated if you do not like the way the ATA is handling the Corporation to ELECT NEW DELEGATES.

THAT'S IS WHAT HE SAID IN A NUTSHELL ON THIS SITE.

He stepped on me w/ Roger McNamer comment, same ole same ole Misaligned BS from N1H1.

GB................................DLS

 

If you do not like the way the ATA is handling the Corporation ELECT NEW DELEGATES. Typing on the internet will get you nowhere; the only changes can come from majority votes at a properly called meeting of the Board of Directors.

N1H1

 

Good grief ol'N1H1 ..... don't you ever get tired of posting the same lame useless thing over and over ?????

Elect a "Delegate" who becomes a sock puppet for the "ATA Corporation" ..... and that is supposed to work how ?????

Stick to entertaining the mental midgets with uncertified "results" from the backyard proving grounds ..... because, most here have seen the zero results from the "ELECT NEW DELEGATES" for the past couple of decades .....

 

Just reminding readers here of the facts, U1. Posters here are free to continue to list all the things that need to change as they have for years with no effect at all, or they could select the one that seems most vulnerable and try to change it. As I say, typing won't change a thing.

N1H1

 

Sure, I feel the same way ..... That is the "fact" that what you continue to post will/can have "no effect at all" .....

 

I have to disagree with "typing won't change a thing" .....

Maybe, if enough people keep reading that "vote for a Delegate", is NOTHING more than buying the ATA one more year of people having NO OTHER CHOICE than a ATA membership, to shoot their state shoot or other shoots that may require a ATA membership ..... the "typing" will be worth the effort .....

The window and place to "vote for a Delegate" is so narrow it is way beyond STUPID, ..... then wait years to so it anything may change ..... vs my ability to "type" 24/7 to tell anyone interested that they will NEVER LIVE LONG ENOUGH to change the ATA by "voting" .....

So, I will keep "typing", while you keep trying to buy the ATA more time by giving false hope to some, that the proven failed system may somehow by unknown forces will work for them now .....

 

The "window" you describe as "so narrow it is way beyond STUPID" is the annual state membership meeting the by-laws specify. It must also be near the end of the state shoot and be announced in the state shoot program. Anyone seriously interested in how the ATA is and might be run could make time for it, Those who don't are not.

The silly, pathetic, intentional helplessness of posters here who demand change but will not lift a finger to advance it is as
beyond understandings as it is their own fault.

N1H1

 

What is "silly", "pathetic", and "intentional", is ol'N1H1 trying to buy time for the ATA, by ALWAYS barking how using a broken system is NOW, somehow, going to the get results IT NEVER HAS .....

Just for you ol'N1H1 ..... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Insanity ..... "The definition of insanity, is, doing the exact same f-ing thing over and over again, expecting shit to change. That. Is. Crazy" .....

 

Sir, it is my understanding that the ATA has a for profit subsidiary. Is it possible that much of the financial “expensing “ could be a result of activity from the for profit subsidiary in lieu of not for profit side of house? Different bylaws apply?

 

I have never heard of such a subsidiary. Tell us more about it, Larry. I'm sure we would all like to know its name, where it is incorporated, and what business(es) it is engaged in.

N1H1

 

Larry C. - there is no such subsidiary. Also, the Doc was saying he noted "irregularities" in the 990, but what he was looking for is not something that gets reported on a 990. As I explained a long time ago in posts way up top you can't call something an "irregularity" if you aren't sure what you are talking about. Just because you can't find something on an IRS Form, especially when it isn't supposed to be reported there, doesn't make it an irregularity.

 

Yes it will, it shows how you Lie, and Informs other readers about YOU. You have been MIS-READING POSTS for YEARS.

GB..............................DLS

 

Ohio Delegate not having to answer questions is ongoing. Good time to bump.