2016 ATA Grand Signature Sponsor

That's quite a title. Being such an important title I guess one would have to pony up big money. Maybe $200,000 or $300,000 or perhaps as much as a half a million. When you have individuals offering these huge amounts the interest in sponsoring such an event must be over the top. So I wonder what it would mean if you could be THE signature sponsor for say only $25,000 or $50,000. I wonder if we'll ever see something like that.

 

Does the ATA need this much of an infusion of cash to use the WSC ??? If they do, It would make good business sense to look for an alternative location. What happens if they can not find donors? Would the Grand have to be canceled? The sport can not handle the problem of not knowing if we will have a Grand shoot every year. Many must make plans well in advance of AUG. every year.

Is the sponsor money going to be used for shoot expenses? Or is it to be used for maintenance on the grounds. Will any be used for prize monies? What do the sponsors receive for their donation? Maybe if the EC or BOD would advertise the conditions for the donations they would get more of a response. My Grand Father once told me you can generate a lot of money by getting a little off of everyone. Not by trying to get a lot from one person. Roger C.

 

Forget about that place. I paid my dues but not in the future if we continue to prop it up. My club will still be open.

 

If it comes down to the ATA doing a short term rental agreement it will not be cheap, seriously doubt 50K will come close based on the cost the State would have to assume liability for ... The amount of time has not even been determined (made public) anyway so it would be any ones guess until that happens ... If the State prorates the amount based on the average it costs them, it would come to over $100,000 for 2 weeks rental , plus, plus, plus ... The State can do it either way , they can include all utilities or make it so the renter has to assume the cost of water, sewer, electric, up keep, security, scorers, loaders, counter help (squads, posting scores etc) or the EC, ED, and BOD can volunteer and handle all of that (wink, wink) ... Cheap is not a word that will be included in any negotiations once they start, if they start ... The residents of Sparta could come out and offer their services at reduced rates to show they truly have an interest in the WSRC staying in operation ... The amount it will cost is far more than the amount they can recover which would make it a bad business decision , like that has ever stopped them ... If there is not a grand at all two weeks later no body will remember it , except these who would still be recovering from it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Guess we can all wait for April 15th again...

 

I would hope Bill Martin now realizes his sponsorship of the ATA while very gracious on his part accomplished nothing. Shooters never responded in larger numbers and the ATA pissed away his support. While very happy to accept his money the ATA did very little to advertise or create further interest among shooters. Nothing changed, you just have a small group of self-described intellects who hold meetings and do nothing to further trapshooting. Their only concern seems to be the Grand and Satellites. The shoots they consider important to their personal travel schedules. God forbid they ever come up with a plan to help the smaller clubs increase participation. At this point I would hope Bill Martin keeps his money for his family to enjoy.

 

One thing I will always remember when I lived in South Carolina was the Delegate Jim Faber coming down to our club several times a year to visit, and shoot registered targets.

Jim was always welcomed, and a great guy to be around...Lots of information was shared to us by him. He told us several times that he didn't know everything that was going on, but when he got information, he passed it along to us. There were NO secrets held by him !

Thanks Jim !

 

Yes Seitz, compared to your immeasurable contribution to trapshooting, their contribution, indeed looks small.

 

Jo2............Tell us about your contribution. It must be larger than your contributions to the forum.

The signature sponsor, regardless of who, is part of the problem. Time to move on. Another act of enabling the ATA's corrupt mismanagement. Enabler does not need a pat on the back. Better a kick in the shorts. The problem wont go away until the enablers disappear.

 

Jo2, perhaps you can enlighten us all on your contributions. You might be surprised what others have done but I'm sure your contributions to the shooting sports surely surpasses anything many of us have accomplished.

 

The Martins have Hearts of Gold , their intent is not to make things more difficult but to try and make them better ... Things do not always work out as intended for what ever reason , but if there is blame to be put it would not be on the Martins ... I would look at the EC, ED, and some of the BOD who are in the mix, not the Martins ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Smithy, I really can't see where I can contribute anything to this forum because to be seen as a worthwhile contributor to this site, you must complain loud and long about anything "ATA", the EC, the BOD, the target presentation, the location of the Grand, and now the newest complaint-about a generous individual who is prepared to donate selflessly to try to attract shooters to the Grand. I am sorry Smithy, but I fail to see where contributions like that are in anyway helpful.

You also allege "ATA corrupt mismanagement." Maybe you could site some concrete examples of this "corrupt mismanagement" and try not to use any of the unsubstantiated myths, rumours, half truths and outright lies that are seen on a daily basis on this site.

 

Seitz, I did not say that I have made any significant contributions to trapshooting. I assumed that when you describe the EC as a "small group of self-described intellects who hold meetings and do nothing to further trapshooting,"that you had actually done something significant for trapshooting, thus making you an expert on the subject, and weren't just sitting on the sidelines lobbing shitballs for effect, as we have come to expect from you.

 

Jo2

Please name the great decisions in the last 12 years of the EC. Need help?
* One time 2 yard reduction.
* Second 2 yard reduction.
* Ignoring the members and locating the flag shoot in Sparta.
* Allowing the faster shells.
* Giving $250k to the HOF to the state of IL for a building they cant own.
* Failing to have a plan B to replace the ass-o-nine plane A.
* Failing to correct target presentation.
* Pull 2012 or is it just Pull?

Need more?

I would speak of their successes but damned if I can think of any. Obviously you cant either. But as always you have nothing to add except to bitch that we now have a venue to discuss the issues.

I do not know what generous individual you are talking about. None mentioned on this thread. If you mean the signature sponsor then please tell me who that is and how much. You cant. It is difficult to wade thru the recent lies.

If you feel bad about us saying the enablers have to leave before the sport can recover then I suggest you get over it. To you mods out there thanks for the opportunity. A real kick in the shorts for Jo2.

 

Jo2, I guess I thought you had made some contributions when you questioned others. It's fine if you've made no significant contributions but I think you'll find many on this site, myself included, have worked shoots and held positions in local clubs and our state organizations. We just feel things have been going in the wrong direction for some time. I personally believe the WSC is soon going to be a memory and we'll need some good leadership to set the path for the future.

 

Given that there is only 1 person budgeted by the state for the WRSC my guess they are a caretaker only. Any events will have to lease the facility from the state, assume full responsibility for all property and costs in the lease will cover the states M&O and debt service. If that happens then I would expect that you will see increased costs associated with any ATA event in Sparta.

 

Smithy, given the scenario where the same 27 yard shooters are winning many of the high profile events, and faced with a growing sentiment, that something had to be done to make the average shooter more competitive, the ATA EC had a few options.

Option #1 would involve pouring more concrete, at an unknown cost to a lot of clubs, to extend the sidewalks (Ollie says to the 30 yard mark), so those accomplished 27 yarders could be forced back to the point where they were no longer as competitive.

Option#2 was to try and make shooters (the vast majority don't average 90% in handicap) more competitive. To do that, those shooters had to be moved closer. Since many shooters do not accept a 1 yard reduction, I am speculating that it was thought that maybe if the shooter was offered a 2 yard reduction, they may accept that. The result was that many shooters did take those reductions, and some new names, at shorter yardages began to show up in the winners circle. The second option could be implemented at no cost to the clubs, and after the first year, a second 2 yard reduction was offered because the initial 2 yard reduction did what it was intended to do, make shooters more competitive. The only problem with these reductions is that they were offered to everyone, not just to shooters who had shot at a qualifying number of targets. An unintended consequence was that some shooters sat on those reductions a did not shoot, for fear of getting yardage, until the bigger shoots came around.

The EC had a third option, of course, which was to sit there with their thumbs up their ass and do nothing, and then listen to the complaints about the long yardage shooters who win everything. I think that they showed courage in their decision to give the 2 yard reduction a try.

Ignoring the members and moving the Grand to Sparta. Really? Where else were they going to hold the Grand in Ohio? The ATA was not in any position to build a shooting facility large enough to host the Grand when it became apparent that the shoot could no longer be held in Vandalia. Do you think that the ATA wanted to move out of Ohio, away from a huge population of shooters? Absolutely not. The truth is, they had no choice. I spoke to two different members of the relocation committee at last years' Grand, and they both said the same thing, there was no affordable location in Ohio to build a facility to host the Grand, regardless of what Gary or Brad will tell you, any talk of free land and a mile of traps for free is all bullshit. There were three options that the BOD had the opportunity to vote on. One option was affordable and the other two weren't. It is not today's EC that is to blame for lack of funds available to develop a shooting facility in Ohio, or the EC in the late 90s for that matter, it was the ECs dating back to the 50s and 60s who did not establish a relocation fund going forward, to have the cash on hand to finance a facility to host the Grand should they loose the home grounds in Vandalia.

Allowing faster shells? How far off a target can you be with one of those fast shells and still break a target? Phil Kiner told me that he felt that the fast shells gave him 1 more target per 100 based on year over year handicap averages using 3dr ammo one year and handicap shells the next. Maybe, but it won't make winners out of losers on a daily basis.

Giving 250k to the HOF in Illinois when they will never own the building. Well I guess, time will tell. If the WSRC complex closes down, it will be 250k down the tubes, if it stays open for another 25 years, it costs $10,000 per year to have it there. Come to think of it, the ATA owned the HOF museum in Vandalia didn't they? How did that go for them?

If by "failing to correct target presentation," you mean using the equivalent of hole 2 targets instead of the equivalent of hole 3 targets, I am not sure what that will accomplish. If you think that it will effect the long yardage shooters and not the short yardage guys, give your head a shake. If you think that it will make losers into winners, shake it harder.

If you are saying that Pull 2012 (whoever that is) did anything wrong, or illegal, I am assuming that you have proof of your allegations.

I understand that the Signature Sponsor is Bill Martin. I am not sure how much he is contributing to the Grand, whether it is being used to meet expenses or to be given away as added money, but whatever it is, it is more than you are contributing.

 

The two yard reduction was merely an attempt to get more shooters competitive. All it did was kick the tin can farther down the road and hurt the smaller clubs. Not a truly bad idea but had unintended consequences. Most of those shooters that accepted the reduction are back where they started and not competitive with the top dogs or professional trapshooters again!
.

To see how screwed up the ATA logic is again let's look at the newly revised yardage table.. Going back and awarding cheap yardage at the encouragement of a few misguided MS shooters is absurd!

 

Jo2
I said you could not name the successes of the EC.

Obviously you cannot name the successes either. What a surprise.

There were 3 sites in OH that were ignored. One site in Indiana ignored. Amazing that a few sites got ignored and Acklin got a free gun. Gee, what moron did not see that coming?

 

Amarillo, Texas ... (Ownership) Those people got treated as if they were from a Third World Country ... WPT ... (YAC) ....

 

Jo2
It is great to see that N1H1's fax is working.

The angles and wind did that. That is why it was changed. Your pal had the angles changed and Dysinger went from a 91 average on the caps to a 96. And Brad's gun fit fine. That was also before the voice machine.

Username Phil Kiners best post was his rant about Michael Jordan having anal sex with other basketball players. Look it up at your own risk.

Most dont have to ask Tiger Woods if you have to hit a ball harder to get it thru the wind. Wind and angles were the threat to the handicap shooter. 1300 fps shells help.

The purpose of a handicap system was to handicap. Not make another group winners. The previous system did that. There were almost no handicap champions at the GAH from the 27 until the angle changes.

 

Jo2

What was the name of the guy that received that lifetime achievement award for taking the sport out of trapshooting? I think they said he was instrumental. For some reason he would never answer how proud he was of that achievement.

I remember a few threads ago you saying you were already shooting the 2 hole targets prior to the rule change. Your last post reeks a bit of justification for that cheating.

This would be a great time for that graph showing what happened after the sport was removed from the game. I will see if I can find it. Stay tuned.

 

Davidson, a word of advice, don't start spreading BS when the facts are easily researched. First of all, let me say that Brad was, and is a tremendous shooter, and when I reference his handicap averages, it is in no way a criticism of his shooting ability. You say that he went from a 91 average to a 96 average when the settings went from hole 3 to hole 2. His best yearly handicap average was 95.27% and he had two yearly averages that exceeded 94%. He had several years that he averaged between 93% and 94%, pre hole 2 and post hole 2, with the differences in the target presentation indistinguishable average wise.

Ollie posted here a short time ago that the biggest reasons the scores have gone up are the voice releases and the ability to get the shotguns to put the patterns where you had to, to break the targets. He is dead on the money. My question to you is, why did the angle changes only help the 27 yarders and not the short yardage shooters?

 

Smithy, those three sites in Ohio were the ones where the unicorns grazed by the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, weren't they? You can rest assured that if Tom Acklin could have found an affordable location in Ohio, the a Grand would still be there. The site in Indiana would have made two trap lines, one in front of the other, necessary. Not really the best scenario. If you are somehow implying that Tom was given a gun because he was instrumental in moving the grand out of Ohio, you're a fool.

 

Jo2...your post shows what an idiot you really are. To say Dysinger's handicap average only went from 91 to 95.27 instead of 96 after the angle change shows you indeed qualify to be a EC member.

And then if there no conclusion about your ability to understand the problem you dig the hole deeper by implying that changing the averages of the 27 yard shooters by 2 targets is virtually no change. I am certain now you were at one time an EC member.

 

The fool is the smuck that thinks Tom was not rewarded. He got his gun. He kept the other options off the table. I hear he died without much money and very few friends in Ohio. Breaks my heart. lol

 

Again you prove how little you know about the history of the move. The biggest kick in the shorts was that the CC was throwing registered targets before Sparta.

Back to my big question to you....you never listed the major successes of your EC pals. Still waiting. You cant and wont as there are none but have at it.

 

The move they could afford the least is the one they made.

 

Wind, distance, and angles are a tough combination. Amazing you dont know that.

At least you admitted to shooting 2 hole targets long before they were legal.

Maybe you can list all those shooters that shot perfect scores at the GAH before the angle change.

 

Jo2

Last year at the CC in the Perazzi building I interviewed Dan Bonillas about the subject. Read and learn.





I interviewed Dan I asked Dan if he thought there was more talent now.
_____________________________________________

His eyebrows curled a bit at the statement. He said, "You only have higher scores. We were shooting for big money. Now they made the targets easier, the shells are faster and maybe the guns are better. Definitely the talent is not better!"

I asked Dan what he thought one of the biggest problems are with registered shooting and without hesitation he replied, "making the targets easier. Now everyone can go out and get a good score."
_____________________________________________

Note to Mr. Bonillas,

It was great to have to the opportunity to spend time with a great shooter that is willing to tell it like it is. Thanks again and hope to see you at the Perazzi Building at the Cardinal Center.

 

Kay Ohye's handicap average went UP .5% the year 3-hole targets were mandated!

 

So we void the averages of the other 40,000 shooters. That is the logic the EC would use. Dawg puts that Ohye figure up in jest I hope knowing darn well that at the time there was a major cheating battle going on between the clubs to throw easier and easier targets. The easier target they threw the more all american wannabees would show.

The averages went up but when it came time for the grand they fell on their faces unable to hit 3 hole targets from the 27.

Those that shot out west and in the northwest saw the two hole targets (if that hard) regardless of what the rule was.

Jo2 implied he never saw the 3 hole targets. Never reported the cheating either.

Neil and his lifetime achievement came to the rescue.

 

Did each and every gun club adhere to 44 degree settings during that timed test in the same fashion as when it was the RULE? I seriously have my doubts!

At last years Grand American, I watched a lot of targets being shot over several banks! Especially the ones I was to shoot on. Two traps were set at straights from posts 1 and 5 and the other two were set at 34 degree angles!! I watched several All-Americans literally struggle with the 44 degree traps breaking scores in the teens! BTW, I saw this on the preferred banks! Possibly an attempt at toning down the scores of the better handicap shooters that usually shoot those banks only?

No where did I say these were illegally set targets, they were very legal and by the book, just differently set angles and it worked like magic to lower some of the best shooters handicap scores!

HAP

 

Nope, the year I believe was 1996 when 3-hole targets were mandated. PSSA put all their traps in the 3-hole while I can't vouch for any others. My ex-wife broke her one and only hundred in Singles that year at the PA State shoot.

Yes, I was asked by the powers in control at that time if I was in favor of the 3-hole and I responded in the affirmative. What people fail to understand is many smaller clubs with poor backgrounds would suffer from wider targets giving another unfair advantage to the larger venues with generally better visibility.

That said, many other changes have occurred since the 2-hole/3-hole debate including voice systems, faster shells and higher quality shotguns. If we really want to get silly just go back to cardboard wads and soft shot and it'll fix the broken Handicap system without any more changes!

 

Again how many hundreds were there on the GAH after the invention of the plastic wad and before 1995? Not Ohye. The 27 yard shooters were stymied at venues the 3 hole setting was enforced. And consider now that most of the money is won from the 27.

 

Hand pullers took care of back yardage shooters scoring all by themselves. The three hole rule was disregarded for decades at most clubs. One of the last holdouts was the old South End Gun Club in Reading PA but they eventually made the change. Three hole target settings meant little to the great trap readers prior to the late 60's.

The reason 27 yd. shooters dominate is because that marker is no longer effective!

 

Smithy, are you saying that Tom got the gun because he kept the other options off the table? I thought that he got the gun because he served a ATA President for the year, and would have received the gun regardless of where the ATA home grounds were relocated to. Ohio, Illinois, Texas, Indiana, or where ever.

 

Got his reward. I hear his gun was rather expensive.

 

Family Guy, I am admitting to having shot 2 hole targets prior to the rule change at local shoots. I also shot 2 hole targets at the Grand during that era, and so did you. Like Ollie says, the three hole rule was disregarded for decades at most clubs, and being that he is in relatively close proximity to your local, I would suggest that the rule was disregarded in your area, for the most part, as well.

 

And that would be absolute bullshit. The move to 2 hole was resisted in my area. So tell us please what area you are from. Sorry to hear about your acceptance of the cheating. Also sorry to hear about your participation.

I know Dawg. I doubt he accepted the cheating and is merely pointing out. Dawg can tell you about clubs that threw even easier targets than 2 hole. I know he did not accept that either. Darn dog and I dont agree on everything but a cheat he is not. I also doubt the state of PA as a whole overlooked cheating. Trapshooting is too important to those guys.

You and the EC accepting the cheating made you guys part of the problem.

If you dont mind please tell use what area you are from. OH here.

 

Jo2
To continue about your acceptance of cheating and allowing the easier targets, many of those in Ohio attended a huge shoot called the tri-state. I doubt the targets there were as easy as 3 hole targets. But this is a trapshooting mecca.

Now your area please.

 

Yup, we threw many 2.5 hole targets too. When the 3-hole threads wore out those old WWII boys who wouldn't throw away anything simply drilled and tapped another hole mid way between the 2 and 3 hole. Not uncommon in my era!

 

Family Guy, I am from the north western part of the Central Zone and the angles that I shot in Ohio were the same as the angles that I shot in my area.

 

Jo2 the cheat from Canada!
And what club in Ohio are you accusing of cheating? Again calling BS.
I am not sure how much forum time I want to spend with a cheat. As per dawg's local clubs wearing out a 3 hole is a far cry from the systematic cheating you describe in your zone. In Dawg's area they were at least trying to obey the rules until the machine would not throw a 3 hole target.

That verses you and your pals that condoned the cheating. If you were participating you are a cheat as well.

Back to your accusing PA of cheating be clear that PA turned in a rogue club. The ATA didnt do too much about that. At least PA stepped up to the plate.

 

If a conversation exists on this forum that hurts trapshooting it is Jo2 talking about permissive cheating in this sport. I hope it is only limited to his zone but i hear stories about the cheats. Just never see it. It goes to show there may be no valu in grand slams.

question. Do we have a rules committee? Do we want one. Sad

 

Jo2

Hard to question some of what you are saying about your zone. You shoot the cheat shoots. I am stuck in Ohio. You know your delegate, zone director, and most of the cronies in your area. You say your area is known for cheats.....ok?

Now what do we do about it?

 

There you go. Tom Acklin was looking for an affordable place in Ohio. Now that is funny!

 

Family Guy, you say that our area is known for cheats because we shot 2 hole targets and deny shooting 2 hole targets in Ohio. I am telling you that I shot 2 hole targets at the Grand in Vandalia prior to the rule change. I remember watching Dean Bright and Morris Stinebring setting targets early in the morning and in conversations with Dean, he confirmed the use of the 2 hole target setting. So, not only were there cheats in Ohio, It is now becoming more apparent that there are bald face liars as well.

 

Jo2....the admitted cheat from Canada. You said you shot the 2 hole targets before they were legal not me. The clubs in your area. You decided to post that. Not me.

As per illegal target settings at the Grand. The Ohioans did not control the target settings at the Grand. I repeat. Ohioans did not control the target settings at the grand.

History Buff discussed this far better than I:

I also noted several times that it was in violation of the written rules. This was affirmed by numerous shooters such as Vic Reinders, Kay Ohye and Frank Little as well as several ATA presidents, some of which ordered the GAH targets to be set in accordance with those written rules and checked the fields each morning.

The sport was not designed to produce numerous 100 and 200 straights. Those scores should be a rarity as they were in the early Grand American Handicap events.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we have lowered our standards to meet the standards of the cheaters.

Isn't that a great story.

 

Family Guy, the big fat liar from Ohio. But they were sure happy to come out and shoot that target setting when they they were given the opportunity, and now some have the gall to deny doing it. Do I smell pants burning?

 

Jo2

Getting weird on me. What opportunity. Ohioans and everyone else that went to the grand went to shoot legal targets that is the reason:

numerous shooters such as Vic Reinders, Kay Ohye and Frank Little as well as several ATA presidents, some of which ordered the GAH targets to be set in accordance with those written rules and checked the fields each morning.

 

Jo2 as to comparing your local clubs, zone, and you, knowingly cheating and expecting the same, you can compare that to the OH State Shoot in 1986.

The OSTA offered $100,000 to anyone that could break 100 straight in the handicap. An insurance company saw to it that the traps were certified to be throwing 3 hole targets.

And you were quoted earlier as implying the scores for 2 hole and 3 hole are virtually the same. The insurance company did not agree.

The shooter that won was a short yardage shooter. NO 100's lol