What If The ATA Stepped Back A Little?

Suppose the ATA stepped back a little and just acted as a record keeping and rule making body. Suppose all shoots could set their own programs, buy their own trophies, access the ATA mailing files for a nominal fee? Suppose the ATA acted as a support center rather than an omnipotent ruling organization. Fewer classes, fewer rules, just more freedom for the individual clubs. While I understand any organization needs rules and record keeping the ATA has pretty much stifled our sport by trying to dictate every single action that takes place. If you really want shooters to trust and support an organization then open it up, full transparency, no secret meeting or deals. Let's see how many would want to serve for free for a couple years. No more big meetings. Use the phone. Simpler may be better and if the monetary decisions are moved down to the clubs that actually put on the shoots I think things just might get a little better. What do you guys think?

 

What do I think? You have just described "The Other Organization" to a tee..... That's what I think.

 

Damn it Dan, it's too early for honest, truthful responses. First we have to go through the ATA is to big to operate like that. The Trapshooting community needs the ATA EC to balance out the fairness between the big and little clubs and the larger and smaller trapshooting states. The clubs can't be left to do things as they wish without guidance. The ATA actually needs a larger support staff as computers can't do everything. That argument mirrors the we can't allow the clubs to directly post results into the ATA computer as they can't be trusted to do it right and honestly. You see there's many reasons why PITA really can't work.
Ok, Dan now I agree.

 

How much more leeway do you fellas want? Didn't we just have a shooter registering targets at 2 clubs the same day? We even had a report your own score program. Saved money on paperwork and scorers. As I recall somehow they used fewer targets.

 

Unfortunately there's bad people in all organizations. But it's worse when they reach the top levels. Given the right EC members one can earn a living selling things to the ATA he decides are needed. It can be great to be on the EC.

 

This is where the IRS can get to the bottom of whether the ATA is really a complying 501c3 Corp

GB................DLS

 

The ATA by design should be as described by Seitz9010, over the years Greed has taken over and replaced the organization that was mean't to promote trapshooting and for the benefit of trap shooters ... Follow the money has become the way of thinking for those who get put into a position on the EC and as ED by the BOD so they can reap the rewards of the "Cash Cow" and be catered to like they really are somebody ... The EC, ED and BOD (for the most part) have to be done away with and replaced with people who have Integrity and Honor that can be trusted to do what the position is designed for to do and that is promote trapshooting ... The clubs and those members of them, all across the country and Canada are the promoters and for the most part always have been ... The Clubs do not need anyone at bigger shoots to represent the ATA and do nothing but take up space while expecting free food, drinks and expenses paid which only adds to the cost of the shoot and should be passed on to the attendees ... Their day will come and the sooner the better ... Good Ol" Boys club is alive and well ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Back in the day, Ray Greb would come over to the NY State Home Grounds club house and sit outside until midnight talking with us "Common" folks.

We would have some very interesting chats. I loved hearing his stories of how he got into his business. Here is a self made man, still works very hard getting his hands dirty, and there is nothing high hat about him at all.

I only wish more of the Presidents and EC would follow Ray's lead.

 

Brad's Friend, Why hasn't Ray Greb stepped forward with some information, is he afraid of upsetting the EC and BOD too?
Gary Bryant...............Dr.longshot

 

What if the EC came to the conclusion that things are not going in a "fantastic direction"? What if they came to the conclusion that this is their fault and they all resigned? What if they all sat at the table and said we do this for the betterment of trapshooting? What if?

 

It would be a good start on getting things back on the straight and narrow ... There are very competent people who could be drafted to take their places ... (Paul Shaw, Dr. Frank Rivley, Mr Jim Thompson to name a few ) ... Integrity and Honor ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Brad'S Friend,

What about the year he skipped the NYS shoot because he knew the state elections were going to messed up?

Some people have long memories and some people have short memories.

Ron Burdick

 

You can't just draft people for these jobs, they have to make a living, their families must agree to
Put up with all the ATA business. There have been officers of the ATA who lost businesses and or
Shot themselves into the poor house.
All we need are honest people willing to give a reasonable amount of time to an extra cuticular activity
(trapshooting).

I hope the ATA survives for my sake as well as those who feel as I do.

Greta c

 

Ron,
I was also in attendance duing the delegate election problem whether Ray Greb chose not to attend because he foresaw a problem is not for sure and anything else is pure conjecture I don't know, do you?

 

oldphart:

It is all history now, but why don't you ask Ray sometime when you see him.

Ron Burdick

 

Ray just happens to be one ATA ex-officio I'd trust. He's also very nice to my wife after she went through the sign in window after him in MD after he screwed up her squad. I did pull her out before she was dq'd. I think a wild eyed Tammy was more than he was willing to mix it up with-a very smart man indeed!

 

Ron,

Call my memory short, Sorry but I really did not remember, nor did I know about this.

I don't remember that at all but it could have been before or after my involvement with NY or the ATA.

Just glad to not be there any more.

 

As I said earlier, that stuff is all history now.

Hope everybody has a MERRY CHRISTMAS.

Ron Burdick

 

I think some of your comments are valid...fewer big meetings, fewer special categories, etc.

But...
You propose fewer rules. Which ones need to go?
More independence for clubs. It what way?
How have the ATA rules stifled the sport and what would you do to reverse that? What would you have done differently?
Are you willing to serve just for the good of the sport? If you were a delegate would you travel all over the state and meet with the shooters on issues/proposals and then vote the will of the shooters, even if it conflicted with your thoughts and those of some of your closest friends? If not, what is going to change?

Merry Christmas to all.

 

Iowa Guy, you make some very good points and raise some interesting questions ... Club rules over ride any rules the ATA has if they are posted and enforced so everyone is aware of them prior to signing up and shooting ... Delegates are supposed to be the mouth piece of the shooters (members) , not just your friends and or your agenda are supposed to be supported ... The ATA is a Member owned organization being operated to enact the EC , ED , and some of the BOD's agenda's not those of the members for the most part ... The "Volunteers" get paid very well (expenses, etc) by the ATA for attending shoots and making claims its company business when in fact they avoid mingling with the shooters at most of the shoots they attend ... Personally, I do not want to pay or support them shooting and for their expenses, food etc , I seriously doubt most of the members do ... The ATA is out of control and the EC, ED and some of the BOD know it and could care less what the members think about it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone ...

 

Merry Christmas Ron, Bill, Dave, Brad, History Buff, and all the others on here !

 

We hear this over and over but no one shows any documented proof.

I''ll even go so far as to say what you are saying could be true but let's see something valid to back up your claims. Is that so much to ask for?

 

Leonidas
What the EC, VP's are paid, compensated, or reimbursed is documented in the minutes. You seem educated enough to look that up. There have been many threads about it including the posting of the minutes. There are also the posts from and about the auditors booted for pointing this out. There are also the documents posted with those threads.

What is it in the minutes that confuses you?

You may want to see the posts about the demands these guys want for booze and food in their special room or building area so they don't have to mingle around with the shooters. I doubt they will get that at the CC.

Still confused?

 

Langer,

When we shut down the free booze and snacks at the spring grand in PHOENIX, they were unhappy with us and we were on the poopy end of the stick after that. Not one of them there would help with the shoot offs, all left to go eat. This includes our state board also. Roger C.

 

Langer, if there have been "many" posts posted about the subject then why is it always repeated over and over again? Do the posters forget that it has been mentioned before?

 

Leonidas,
I have requested a Profit and loss statement several, as in many times and have yet to get a response ... I always say "if you have nothing to hide, hide nothing" which does not seem to be the case with the EC, Ed, and some of the Board of Directors ... If people see it in print enough times they might get upset enough about it to put a stop to it or they can stand by and defend it like you obviously do with your repeated posting asking why things are mentioned more than once to several times ... You do not have to read anything posted more then once if it bothers you, that is another option you might want to exercise ... Merry Christmas and Happy New Year ... Oopps I said that before also ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Roger, what year was did this happen? Late 1990's? I guess I don't know how the satellite grands are set up. Is it the host clubs responsibility to run the shoot or the ATA's. I'm not asking what your opinion is, but rather what it actually is.

I do agree with what some others have stated in the past. If the delegates are there on ATA business and the ATA is reimbursing their travel expenses they should make themselves available to the shooters. If they're there on their own dime then the obligation is not quite the same.

Does this freebie expectation still exist today?

 

Leonidas....you just asked that it be repeated over and over again. Did you forget this was mentioned before?

Get some of docs meds.

 

Iowa Guy,
The clubs that host the bigger shoots pay big money for ATA trophy's and in that they also pay the expenses of the EC and or BOD who are going to attend ... They said it was usual and customary to have finger food, sandwiches, soda, water, and adult beverages available for them in their own little private place so they could relax ... John Norris approached me and informed me of this, I told him that I would be back in a few minutes as I was in the middle of running a shoot ... I told them there was a bar and restaurant with good food, they can sit with and drink with the people they are supposed to represent and eat to their hearts content but put their money down because we are not going to support them and pay for all their expenses on top of it, they looked at me as if to say I had to be joking ... I also advised them that the little private place was our class room (gun safety classes) and it was not their place to hide from the members (Shooters) while they were there ... When the shoot offs started they all took off to a bar not far from the club for dinner and their drinks so we handled them without them, yes they were supposed to make a showing and Judge the shoot offs ... They did nothing but tell us what was usual and customary pretty much from the time they got there until they left, like they were Rock Stars or something important ... I told one of them to get out from behind my counter (by the cash register) or I would have him arrested and hauled off of the property in hand cuffs ... They lost a $600 radio and refused to pay for it saying it was not their problem ... They also claimed the club never paid but we had the cancelled check for proof that we did and sent them several copies of it as proof ... It took us weeks to get the smell out of the place but that's for a different thread ... I cannot say if this is the norm yet today but I was told it was usual and customary several times while they were there wanting us to Baby sit and take care of them ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I'm not sure what you guys are interested in from a P&L statement. Financial statements don't list individual check disbursements or payees, or anything like that, which is what it sounds like you are interested in. You might see total travel expenses, but that's about it.

 

We quit stocking the private room for them in about 96 or 97 i'm not sure. but they asked for it after that. Read WPT's above post. The host club's paid to hold the shoot, back then it was $13,000.00 to hold the satalite grand. I'm not sure what the cost is now. They also filed a claim against the sale of the club even though they could not prove the claim and were paid out of escrow when the club was sold. This is all history and has no bearing on todays problems. Rogwer C.

 

WPT, I don't doubt your account of the situation. It is just plain wrong to act the way they did. I hope that it is not happening today. I'm sure with your AZ connections you can find out if Tucson is faced with the same type of thing.

Let's not condemn the current management for the actions of people nearly 20 years ago unless it's fact that the same attitude is held by the current guys.

 

These are good guys now. Laughing so hard my stomach hurts.

 

Many of us know who furnished trophies, not now, I hope.

But......it did exist.

There were many ways to make extra money besides all the free perks!

I guess the good ole boys maybe still around.

Greta c

 

I guess where I was headed was I believe the ATA EC gets a little carried away. We have fewer shooters but more classes the clubs have to reward. Two yard reductions that accomplished what? An ATA EC member threatening to shut down a Satellite Grand if he didn't get his way, while the club was doing nothing wrong. I understand the need for rules but the EC appears unwilling to enforce the ones we have and then powerless when they make a feeble attempt. Usually when something is going in the wrong direction a move back to the basics tends to right the ship. If I was a club owner I would really have to be a big proponent of registered shooting for all the trophies I would need for the smaller shoots we're seeing. Pot shoots, meat shoots, leagues and etc. seem to offer a lot more bang for the buck. I'm just not seeing any action by the ATA to bring in shooters. Currently we've got the Grand on a downhill slide and picking up speed but no ones communicating. As they say, beautiful, *#~=ing beautiful!

 

Seitz,

I don't follow your point about all the trophies you would need for registered shoots at your club? Maybe I missed the point, but it sounds like you are talking about shoots at the small Club level, where Clubs do set their own programs, buy their own trophies, etc, etc. Clubs don't have to offer any trophies at all if they don't want to. ATA is not involved in running these shoots, we are.

 

Iowa guy,
I wouldn't even ask the people down in Tucson if things are the same today because it does not matter to me personally if they give them Limo's to ride around in being as I am not involved and the folks down there have a mind of their own ... They have some very generous people involved down in Tucson that we didn't have but I doubt that would of changed anything ... My point was just to let people know what the EC and some of the BOD expected and how they put demands on the clubs hosting the bigger shoots ... Merry Christmas and Happy New Year ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT, yes, I understand that, but it was nearly 20 years ago. I've not attended any baby grands other than the Heartland Grand. I don't know how many of the BOD were there. Outside my delegate and maybe a couple of local states I wouldn't know them if I saw them. I can state the couple I did know were working the classification table and seemed to be helping Dale where they could.

Some of you will put me in the Kool-Aid crowd. I can tell you I'm far from it. I love to shoot trap, have been doing it for nearly 40 years. Currently the ATA is the only competitive deal in town. If the ATA ceased to be, and registered shooting was controlled by another national association or left up to the states to run I'll still be shooting.

 

Iowa Guy, I try not to judge people by their beliefs or how they feel about things. I do support the ATA. There are a few bad actors in the organization. Do not paint them all with the same brush. The bad part is if you know of someone that is doing dishonest things and do not come forth, that is abetting. That is guilt by association. Roger C.

 

Bat, once the ATA introduced new categories shooters started looking for trophies or rewards at small shoots. If you have 40 shooters and everyone's looking for their trophy the club ends up getting criticized for not offering enough trophies. I've actually seen the above happen. Two shooters in one category complaining no trophy was awarded. Its becoming a participation trophy rather than an award for performance. It's more social oriented now rather than performance oriented. We now have shooters bragging about the number of shoots they attended with no mention of how they shot.

 

Presently too many categories and trophies, costs are great for small clubs if they don't offer the ATA category trophies they are criticized if they offer small trophies ( do to costs) they are critic.ized and in any case loose shooter attendance. Amounts to damned if you do damned if you don't. You shouldn't receive a trophy just for attending, trophies in my opinion are to be won by performance.

 

Seitz, I certainly have not seen any of the newer categories offered at small shoots, and haven't seen anyone complaining about it. Usually there aren't even all of the old categories offered. That is why ATA allows us to design programs to suit our local needs. I can't speak for your area. My guess, and its only a guess, is that very few small shoots offer trophies for the new categories.

 

There sure are a lot of categories, BUT what about the older shooter
(80) and up?

We have been supporting trapshooting for a long time.

Please think of us!

Greta c

 

Sr Vet should cover it Greta.

But I'm sure there are some who think there should be a trophy for each year in age over 70.

 

Leonidas,

The next large shoot that you attend, count the number of senior vets in attendance and then count the total attendance. This will give you a good account of the percentage of seniors in attendance. There is a big difference between a seventy year old person and one that is eighty. Hopefully you will experience the difference some day.

The junior gold is a useless catagory. Lady 1 is also. They should go back to Lady, Vet. JR.& SR. Vet. We have morphed into the skeeters way of thinking. When I started in this game I never seen trophies at smaller shoots. The State shoots, Grand, and zones were the only place that trophies were given. When the feel good crowd got into ATA shooting every one in attendance thought they should receive a prize. It is called the liberalization of a competitive sport, and liberalization always leads to the down fall of any thing it touches. Roger C.

 

How about us?
I am eighty years old, and my Jack (John c. DEISHER) who will be 90 in
August and can still outshoot many of the best!
Should we not have a super sr class?
We certainly have paid our dues and more to trapshooting.
Material trophies can be and usually are useless. How about usable
Trophies (gift certificates, shells, or $$$)
As far as lady 1 , it is not like before when there were only a
Handful of females shooting, to me that is a deserved category!

Greta c

 

Greta... With all due respect, I would like to offer this: By your own statement, Jack is 90 years old and can still out shoot many of the best. I can only assume you mean the best of the AA through D class shooters, correct? Why should the ATA, or a club, have to offer a trophy for only those in his age group as he could probably out shoot all of them? Makes no sense at all. If he doesn't out shoot them, he can still fall back on the Vet category. The VET class should cover ALL shooters over the age of 70. One trophy. No sub vet, no senior vet, no elder vet, just plain vet. Unfortunately, there are very few 80 plus year old shooters at most shoots yet the club is obliged to provide the same trophy for them as for the AA class shooters. It just does not make economical sense. As for lady trophies, I have yet to see where there are more lady shooters than AA shooters at a registered shoot, yet you are promoting more than one trophy for ladies, is that correct? There is only one AA trophy isn't there, so why should there be more than one lady trophy? Just so more shooters can feel good saying "look at me" I won a trophy? This is the very reason the sport is so watered down because of this type of mentality. I don't want to come across as rude, but, at some point we need to recognize that we cannot, and must not, continue this trend. This is a sport of "Shoot good and win or shoot poorly and lose". It's not horseshoes where if you get even close you can win a prize. I am pushing 71 years old hard and I wouldn't care if they dropped the Vet category completely. If you get to be our age and have shot trap for many years, trophies are meaningless. Most of us have won all we could ever want or need at some time or other. The purpose now is to compete and go out and do our very best regardless of the trinket offered.... Just my opinion. Again, Greta, I mean no disrespect towards you or Jack, it's just the price we pay to be older shooters. For the bulk of us, our best days have come and gone, but, every once in a while, that shining spark of greatness peeks through and we win. .. It's worth the price of admission to me....

 

Maybe we should also congratulate Jack for his 200 straight a few years ago at the Cardinal Center. Quite an achievement from this fine old gent and better than any flashlight trophy he could have received!

 

Trap2

Why wonder about what the ATA has for classifications when PITA is nearly identical. And even with a "Elder"class the ATA doesn't have. Maybe you should stick to criticizing an organization that you actually belong to.

Taken from the PITA Arizona State shoot program being held at Casa Grande Trap and Skeet 2/29/16 thru 3/1/16.

Winners in classes: AA, A, B, C, D, Lady, Vet, Sr. Vet, Elder, & Junior. (3 entries required per class or category for awards)

 

Loenidas, What sport is she critical of? Please name it. Roger C.

 

Roger, my quote is from Trap2 who responded to Greta's post regarding why the ATA should have of trophy for someone that is her husbands age group.

 

Leonidas, Thanks, I did not know what you were referring to. We need less trophies and less events offering AA points. The smaller clubs need more attendance. THE WHOLE SHOOTING SEASON IS TAKEN UP WITH SATALITE GRANDS FOR MOST SHOOTERS. With out the small clubs to feed the stream of registered shooters the sport will dry up. Even with the free memberships given out by the ATA we are still loosing members.
The AA points are in many instances a joke. I have been at many shoots where in some catagories there were less than 5 competitors. AA points were awarded.
We need a reincarnation of Jimmy Robinson. He picked a team based on ability and their deportment. Roger C.