Hey BIG PAPA - Zone shoots were a fail?

BIG PAPA - the local creative marketing efforts gets an "A" but I hear the Ohio Zone shoot attendance wasn't good. Maybe the OSTA didnt charge enough for the targets.

If they dont start making better decisions, i am going to break out my old forged irons. I spent Sunday watching golf.

Did you get the final Sunday numbers?

 

I am of the opinion the numbers were about the same sunday as they were saturday in the NW zone. Have no idea about the other zones.

 

I would definitely not call the NW Zone at Williams County a fail. Great bunch of shooters both days, excellent food, didn't observe anyone not enjoying themselves. 64 shot the 200 singles, 43 shot doubles, 63 caps. Threw 17,875 total targets for the weekend, and that's how we keep the doors open and pay the bills. Raised almost $1000 for the youth trapshooting program with raffle items, nearly gave away a Big 50 award in the caps! Bonus coupons were appreciated, had a very worthy group at Newport to share the Zone with.

 

THANKS JOE, for the "real" numbers. As expected, another great job by the WC crew.

 

Joe are you too young to remember when your dad and I would have shot a northwest zone at Jaqua's in the 70's that had 400 shooters? You had a nice shoot for today's standards, but not a successfull ZONE shoot. In those same years 150 corn was exceptional, today it's a failure. The reverse is true about trap shooting. In historical terms the zones suck and have for many years..

 

Brad, 95% of those guys who shot in the 70's are dead.

 

We are not all dead, 95% are not able to shoot any more. But we shot in the hay days of trap, and loved the sport. Roger C.

 

Ollie and not replaced. The ATA was run like Bud Lite is today.

 

Roger, we're part of the 5%.

 

Brad, stop living in the past! Kids leave school and play video games-often with their parents. The jock types are recruited for school sports and with practice and games they are completely jammed up. . Most kids can't leave the house with a rifle or shotgun anymore without getting arrested. Anyway, they might as well carry a stick as real wing shooting is a thing of the past too.

 

Great job with the creative incentives. It could have been much worse.

 

I have plenty of young hunters at my club. It costs them a lot more than trap shooting. The present for trap is dead, hunting preserves are doing better today than when I started 28 years ago. No ATA to F it up.

 

Brad, describe PLENTY and how many squads show up on a regular basis. Sporting Clays ate trap shootings lunch because the younger shooters have fun. Trap is nothing but hard work and youngsters hate that bad word.

 

Brad- I remember those days. It was a big deal, and dad and several others from Williams County were attending the Zone no matter what. I was in high school, but weekends were filled with sports commitments, but my shooting was the Defiance Club and Williams County Meat shoots on Sundays. Your point is well taken- we have an issue with shoes being filled by the younger generation. Yes they are busy with all kinds of school activities, and when they get out of school, they are still busy or just don't want to shoot. We can say it's the expense- but I'm not buying that. We have a youth program that was funded by the Potterfields and some very generous people that put in a lot of time to build it. We have a youth organization now that pays for the targets and shells for these kids, through college age, with a small commitment on their part. That being said, we had 4 youth shoot the NW Zone, with all except doubles being free for them. We used to take 25+ to the state SCTP, this year we have 7. And they are older kids that will be exiting the program soon. No young ones coming up getting involved. We canvas the schools, the vo-ag programs, and the 4H. They just don't want to do it. There are a few exceptions, and with those parents are usually involved and get them there, but for the most part we have a dying program. And that leads right into our gun club- no one filling shoes or getting involved. And us older guys, keep getting older! I don't see sporting clays taking the shooters away. In our area, you have to drive a long way to shoot sporting. Figure a whole day when you do it. I've shot with some good sporting shooters, but it's not crowded, and there are not many young sporting shooters. I shot the Gamaliel in Nashville several times. They're all older than me, and not a huge crowd. Nashville even gave that shoot up. Kind of like golf, that sport is hurting because the young people are not filling the old people's shoes. I don't have the answer to bring in new shooters, they just don't have the desire and drive (there are exceptions) to shoot like we did and some still do. I blame it on the cell phone!

 

If Sporting Clays didn't eat Trap's lunch just check out one particular venue Lehigh Valley Sporting Clays, their schedule and hours of operation. The place is generally packed. Krieghoff sells far more Sporting K-80's than any other and can't make enough of 'em. Any idea where the corporate sponsorship money headed? 2022 Sporting Clays Open sold out in 2022 and up 120 shooters for a total of 1435 entered. How many trapshoots went up in attendance? If you don't know then I can't help.

 

Joe……
We are bringing in the shooters. You are doing a great job marketing!

The OSTA has no agenda. Ask your delegate what his agenda is. Ask what he accomplished. Ask what their marketing plan is. What has the OSTA done to put sport back in the game? What have they done to put money back in the game. Ask the same to the PA delegate

The sport is a reflection of the leaders ruining it. Terrible!

 

Did the ATA help ruin ATA trapshooting-of course. When I started in 1973 we had local feeder clubs running shoots and everyone had their own dates that didn't interfere with the others. That sure changed. Reducing the number of shooters needed to get yardage steered shooters toward getting their targets at the larger venues instead of breaking below 90 handicap scores and getting an increase. Yes, handicap target management skills were alive and well. Adding multiple categories so everyone gets a participation trophy diminished the quality of the trophies available because of the added cost. People stopped playing the money because professional trapshooters mastered the 27 yd. line and it became a sucker bet. Gamblers realized they had a better chance making a few bucks at the casinos than at a trapshoot. And the list goes on and on while the only silliest suggestion we hear is to make the angles wider and throw 'em longer so a bunch of wannabe D class shooters will flock to the game and the ones who don't shoot anymore or stink do the most griping.

 

Having returned from the Middle Atlantis States Championship yesterday at the South End Gun Club I recalled when they had over 60 squads shot the 200 Singles event back in the 70's. Yesterday, they had 71 shooters in the Singles event. 95% of those 70's shooters are either dead or are no longer capable of shooting. That era is over!

 

The era is over, because the people in charge of the ATA had no idea how to entice young and new shooters into the sport of trap shooting. They would not listen to the members, they were more interested in pushing their own misdirected agenda. Many of them were feathering their own nests and the hell with everything else. A $25,000.00 gun is a lot of incentive is it not. They were men of no honor. Shame on them.
You can blame it on many things, but lack of competent leadership is the major blame for trap shootings demise, along with the many people that did not follow the rules of the sport. Roger C.

 

No one needed to be enticed to shoot trap. All one has to do is look at a few high school yearbooks from the 50's and 60's and see what young people did with their time and where they were headed. Most of the boys hunted, fished, trapped or worked on cars. Many were headed to the service. Contrast that to today and anything related to the outdoors is never mentioned and mechanics get their hands dirty so that's a no no. We didn't need enticement-it's what we did.

 

Joe I liked your responce. When money was taken out of trap shooting the die was cast. The shooters of my time were money shooters. We were young men that liked to compete. When the targets were made easier that was the beginning of the end. New shooters knew they couldn't break a 100 and that is what is needed to win today in every event and yet no money and no chance to recover your expenses. Trap became skeet. The ATA rules killed shooting more than the move to Sparta.

Joe you are right about the gen Zers for sure but what does the ATA offer them, what goal, what does ATA success look like today? When I was 19 it was money, gold and silver trophies, a chance to win a car every once and awhile. Maybe some Trap Shooting fame too; that ment you'd get FREE AMMO from some company. Maybe even get to go to work for a GUN COMPANY. Just what really is trap shooting offering these lazy young people who can't even define what a woman is? AA points. NONE of what I just mention that motivated me back then is offered today, so why would they shoot? AB is finding out that even free Beer doesn't cut it. I don't think it's all those shooters that don't shoot even with free targets, AS the old saying goes where's the BEEF?

 

I always find it interesting when shooters blame everything on silly things for lack of participation in trap. First and foremost, the ATA screwed the pooch, the big clubs took all the shooters, Sporting Clays ate our lunch, too many miserable old people, poor food with clubs serving alcohol, the targets are too narrow or short, high prices and the list could get much longer. In reality, it's us who are responsibility for trapshooting recruiting and success-nothing else. How many here have wives, kids or grandkids they invited to the range and tried to make it fun? I don't mean handing them an old H&R single shot 12 ga and laugh while they got beat up and never asked again. My theory is simple, if you're not willing to sacrifice your time and wealth to at least make your family members into trapshooters it's time to look in the mirror. Maybe I'm fortunate both my sons and "both" my wives were competitive shooters but to say it wasn't difficult at times would be a lie. So, stop the tears, do your part or take the blame!

 

Ollie you are still full of shit. Push the 30 yard line some more. Everything you have said is wrong. You setting easy targets at your club so your buddies could think they were capable of winning was not helpfull to anyone. How has that dog worked out? Trap shooting today is made up of old fat K 80 shooters that lack talent. Takeing money out of shooting was the only way these old fat shooters could think they could win and you used them to sell guns. You are the one that needs to look in the mirror.

 

Dave Berlet lived through the same exact heyday of trap that you old grouches did, but instead of constantly moaning about how things have changed and diminishing the fun young people are currenty having, he heads out to the line and has fun right along side them. I watched him smashing targets yesterday and saw a sweet little girl crush 200 straight and make some money doing it, despite it being a tiny shoot. Both seemed to be having a lot of fun to me, and I certainly had fun watching and rooting for them. In fact everybody I saw seemed to be having a great time.

We all play the cards we are dealt, in the era we are dealt them. If your era was better, maybe you should just thank God for that blessing and let others enjoy what they have, in their time, without constantly trying to convince them it stinks.

Roy

 

I agree that the money leaving the game took away a lot of shooters and a reason to shoot. When you get down to it, trapshooting is the best competitive clay target game there is. What other shooting game is there a handicap where even someone that isn’t the best can still have a chance to win against the best in the game? Admittedly, the handicap system isn’t perfect, but back when a 25 or 50 could pay for your week at the Grand, there was still reason to do it. I’m in SW PA and the Grand moving absolutely killed the small shoots around here, I saw it- there was no reason for anyone to “get their birds in” for the Grand. Before when local shoots were bigger, there was reason to play options, now, except for some rare exceptions, you’re very lucky to just win your option money back.

Today trapshooting is a money pit. You can’t win anything of value, and if you do any amount of it, you’re putting a ton of money out there. When you take the competitive side of trap shooting out, is it really that fun? Sure- guys can head to the club with a few of their buddies and shoot a round or two for the socialization, but are those guys going to shoot the 10- or 20,000 targets per year that a serious ATA shooter would? Probably not. I don’t think sporting clays is as good of a competitive sport as trap shooting, but it is more fun to shoot (to me, anyway)- if I’m spending a lot of cash on something that I’m not going to win much back from, I might as well have fun doing it, so now I shoot sporting. I wouldn’t have done that 20 years ago, though.

 

Roy, Yes trapshooting has been a lifetime love for me and I am very thankful that I can still go out and shoot even though for some reason I don't seem to shoot very well most of the time and it is really nice when I am able to break a good score.

Now on to something that really has me very concerned about the future of our sport. The people on our Ohio Hall of Fame committee have made a decision that across the board in all HOF's has never been heard of before. Basically The language for all is nearly the same(trapshooting, baseball, football, basketball, and so on). When a person is selected to be inducted into a hall of fame for achievements in a sport they are FOREVER ENSHRINED INTO THIS HALL OF FAME. this means until the end of time, no if's and' or but's and definitely no maybe's. It makes no difference as to what happened before or after some one has been FOREVER ENSHRINED. In the year 2000 I was asked to interduce a shooter for induction into our OSTA HOF who both Dirk and myself had over the years squadded with many times.( Jaqua's, Vandalia, Sparta, and the Cardinal Center). I knew this shooter basically only as a trapshooter and over the many years of our friendship I never saw this shooter do anything other than act as a gentleman. When I interduced this shooter everyone clapped and cheered and there didn't seem to be a problem. Later as I understand it he had some problems over the years before his FOREVER ENSHRINEMENT and after being inducted he had more problems and both he and his brother were shot and killed. I in no way was involved with or condoned what transpired with his life other than being a trapshooting friend. Now after his death the HOF committee has taken it on themselves to remove his picture from the wall and have his name removed from the State Shoot Program. In my and some other shooters opinions this has to be one of the most boneheaded actions ever taken by our HOF committee and it needs to be changed as soon as possible.

There have been other HOF enshrines over the different HOF's that have committed many bad things even including murder and they have not been removed. Any action against this person needed to have been done before he was FOREVER ENSHRINED. I just read on the football HOF a statement that read O J Simpson will never be removed from the Football HOF.

If you are able to please make your feelings known to the OSTA HOF Foundation chairman and the committee members and lets get Randy Wilhelm's picture back where it belongs and his name back in the program.

Dave Berlet
National Trapshooting HOF
Ohio State Trapshooting HOF

 

So, in other words Brad, you didn't do anything to encourage other family members to learn the game just complain about being unable to win sucker's money anymore. A bit selfish I'd say along with others in your shoes. Didn't someone invest a ton of money promoting the Sparta grand and it meant nothing except buying his way into the HOF? Over a decade later Sparta's still here while more shooters died. As I often said, most of the money shooters from the 70's and 80's are either dead or unable to compete- know what I'm saying. Then tell us how many casinos were open and available to take bets under controlled conditions-no heat, cold, snow or rain. Just saying the 30 yd. line won't slow down top shooters scoring tells me that you've still got their back and want the fish back in the game. If not, as a former TD with the ability to decide just how your targets needed to be thrown to bring back the money-you failed miserably.

 

Brad do not pay any attention to oleo. He is one of the self confessed cheaters that helped to put our sport in the dumper. He was never in the ranks of elite shooters, and it seems to bother him. Take any thing he says about the sport with a grain of salt. If he ever cared about the sport, he would not have broken the rules. He is without honor. Roger C.

 

It's OK Rog, I see you never did anything to promote trapshooting in your family either. I doubt anyone would want to spend their entire day driving around looking for that special target and refusing to shoot all the rest. I'd be bored too!

 

oleo, you have no inkling what I have done in my life. Don't even speculate on it. I always went by the rules as written. I didn't brake them to get a better average. You keep referring to your wife and sons abilities that you paid for their shooting and did not have enough for your self. You have a nice day. and maybe we can work up a pity party for you. Roger C.

 

Trapshooting needs five smaller 'dawgs far more than one big 'dawg. I've done my part to keep it going. Others, nothing but complaining. If you had any experience training four others in your family and paying their freight your attitude would be different. I'm proud of what they've accomplished. Oh, and I just picked up a nice BT-99 Micro for my 11 yo granddaughter. At least I won't have to pay for this one's shooting.

 

You helped run the smaller dawgs out of the sport. How do you feel about that? Roger C.

 

While the bigger 'dogs do nothing but complain? Why they can no longer take little 'dogs money?

 

I just had a talk with WPT toaster, and it made more sense than you do. That is BULL SHIT. The big dogs are capable of shooting winniIng scores
when the rules are followed. When you and some others cheated on target setting, the also ran's started to shoot winning scores, and the little dogs
stayed home. The ATA is as much to blame as the cheaters. They could have stopped the rule offenders, but they were pussies. ROGER C.

 

Roger, is there a part of "dead" you fail to understand?

 

I understand many things, Most of your posts on here are you trying to make your neferious actions legit. It will not work . When you can not climb out of a hole, a wise man will stop digging. Roger C.

 

Roger, please tell us what we need to break scores much above 70/100. You might struggle with the answer. That said, dead people care less about trapshooting and most of them from the 70's are dead. So went turnouts.

 

IT IS A WASTE OF TIME TO TRY TO EDUCATE YOU ON THE HONORABLE ATTITUDE THAT IS THE HEART OF COMPETITIVE SPORTS, THAT MUST BE HEEDED TO BY THE COMPETITORS. I HAVE WASTED ENOUGH TIME WITH YOUR BABBLING. ROGER

 

Well this thread sure rubbed the wall and crashed.

I’m thinking about having a new category titled

Roger & Dawg

That way you two can insult one another on your own thread.

Keep the punches above the belt.

Fair warning from the nice moderator.

 

I will never respond to another of dawg's posts. Roger C.

 

I have five bucks that says that declaration won't make it past June.

 

shortbarrel, I will send you my address so you can remit after Aug first. Roger C.

 

Still on Sagebrush?

The fitting fixture is worth twice what you sell it for and made the job easy peasy.

 

It is my way of helping to keep costs down for the shooters. Roger C.