Long distance patterning

This is my first post on American Trapshooter.Com and would appreciate some insight on a couple of questions regarding long distance patterning and long distance 12 gage shot shells. I live in San Diego and have a very limited choice of shooting venues in the area. To supplement my ATA shooting (preferred) I enjoy shooting games ( Pot shooting, Annies, Etc.) at two ranges in San Diego and a few in the Los Angeles area and enjoy them all. At the two ranges in San Diego we line up from 27 yards to about 45 yards from the house and use Pat Traps set at about 50 MPH . The ranges in the Los Angeles area use Continental type traps and seem to throw the targets about 60-65 MPH ( just a guess) . The shooting distance seems to range from 30 - 70 yards behind the house. Included with this is extreme angles and usually wind.
At the two ranges in San Diego my humble loads will break targets consistently , Federal Paper hulls , 29 grains Longshot 1 1/8 oz # 6 West Coast Shot , Winchester primer, Federal Wads.

My questions are as follows :

1. Has anyone done any long distance pattern testing ( 60-125 yards ) and are there any published results that I can review ?

If none are available my plan is to construct a 10 foot X 10 foot frame made out of PVC and shoot it a various distances with some shells that will hopefully perform better for my crazy pot shooting application. I spoke to Kevin at downrange wad company and will have the shells pressure tested before using them.

2. What loads have you had success with at extreme long range ?

Thank you in advance !


Bill Sergent
San Diego Ca.
ATA # 10 14930

 

Wood contact George Digweed of England, 130 yards clay target shot.

 

We used to shoot Friday night games at the Phoenix club before urban expansion got us ... We would shoot Annies, Protections, miss and outs, you name it from 30 yards and more, as we wrapped up the evening of shooting we would walk back to approx 50 yards behind the trap house (flag pole) and shoot 5 for $5, (winner take all) we would wind the machines up tight to throw long and hard targets ... If it came out it was legal, no exceptions and we would get a fair share of wild targets to shoot at ... There were many guys who shot big boomer shells that they loaded especially for these events, they were supposed to be limited to legal shot size (7 1/2's) but who knows what they loaded ... There were many of us who shot factory AA handicap, Silver Bullets, Nitro 27's (handicap) White Rino's etc and to tell you the truth the guys with the shells that were on the edge of being dangerous didn't win any more than the guys shooting new shells ... I do not have the Data you asked for so I can only go by what I had experienced and witnessed ...
There was a bunch of us who literally shot from the parking lot at one club (approx 60 yards) and again the big boomers did no better than the guys shooting new factory ammo did ... I do not reload and do not shoot some of those things some of the guys loaded after seeing a guy shoot a Model 12 until it was so loose he had to have it re sleeved and the head space ring replaced, the Gun Smith said the big boomer shells probably did more damage than they are worth ... That guy went and bought an over/under to play the games with after that, and he complained about recoil all night long ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bill you can buffer your loads with corn meal. It helps keep the shot from deforming and holds it together. Try #5 or#6 shot but do not over load with powder as it will scatter the pattern more than anything else. Good luck. Roger C.

 

Never heard of such a thing. Can you elaborate Roger? Do you put the corn meal in with the shot in your shot column?

 

Bill,

Sorry I can't offer anything about your question, BUTTTTTTT

WELCOME ABOARD to our great American Trapshooting site

 

Back in the day when I was using 00buck shot for deer hunting in VA, I used a buffer mix between rows of pellets when I reloaded them. I bought the mix from Ballistic products...I think. Been a long time. Also mixed the buffer material with #2 shot for goose hunting on MD's eastern shore.

 

that's proper StoneAge! There is a wealth of buffered load data available from the powder guys tested and proven and I'm pretty sure none of it uses corn meal. Plastic buffering has been available for about a hunnert years and using anything else may well make the load data somewhat less than safe.
JMO of course - shoot anything you like in your gun

 

After dropping the shot sift the corn meal done into the shot cup. It is dense enough to help stop distortion of the shot. It also helps hold the pattern together.
Semperfi, I really do not care if you ever heard of the buffer material I suggested. From your sign on name I would assume you knew a little about guns and ammo, I'm afraid I over judged your abilities. Will not happen again. Roger C.

 

I am known as Dr.longshot all over the country, I shoot just one load for all OFF the Line, it is 33.5 Grains longshot, 1 1/8th oz #6s
Hard Shot, in all Hulls, Windjammer Blue wad, RIO Primers, 30lb nwad pressure, it will break the target wherever they want to go, of course a full choke of .035 or tighter, I have 1,000s of them loaded up, it was something to do when I had my left foot Amputated, 1stn shot shell on games from the line 1250 fps #7.5s 1 1/8th oz, I prefer the Winchester Super Handicap. But nthis is the wrong site for this question, Go to our Reload site.

GB...................................DLS

 

Dear Roger
My dear old Dad used cornmeal as buffer and I watched and helped him load them over 70 years ago. I know it works, and I know how/why it works. I said it was stone age. It is. Buffered loads do not to my knowledge any longer, if they ever did, spec cornmeal as buffer.
have a nice day
Charlie

 

How about Powder Graphite or Moly lube powder ? Has anyone tried it as a buffer ?

 

I suppose you could use sand or old shredded newspaper or some such thing.
I mean, why would anyone want to use that commercial plastic stuff that the firearms companies have tested and developed?

 

Jakearoo, You have to be careful how much weight you add to the load. It will raise the chamber pressure. Corn meal and that plastic stuff is light weight.
Charlie, Your last sentence does not make a lot of sense, please clarify. Roger C.

 

I have no idea where the Old Man got his data for the buffered loads. I have not had any use for buffered loads since that time so I do not know if the loading manuals ever stated cornmeal as a buffer then or any other time.

 

If it was me using Corn Meal, I would cut a shell or two, and weigh it, to be sure my total weight is within specs.


GB............................................DLS

 

Bill, I recognize you from the LGGC trap league. I think you'll find with anything over 50 yards that breaking a target depends a lot on pure luck. I also like #6 hard shot for the Annies, but go to 1 3/8oz to increase my chances of a hit.

 

mudpack,
Not sure what you are talking about but I agree that breaking targets over 50 yards are pure luck, the club where we shoot have rules pertaining to the size shot that is allowed (not to say some of the guys don't cheat) but shot size is limited to 7 1/2's or smaller ... I shoot Nitro 27's Handicap 7 1/2's (NEW) and if its my day I usually do okay otherwise contribute ... My Buddy Roger C. shot Winchester Silver Bullets (NEW) and he did okay also on occasion ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Doc, I never used it, but many of those old games shooters did in the south. All I ever used was AA super Hdk. 71/2 they did a good job. Roger C.

 

The clubs I shoot/shot at also had a max size of 7 1/2.....but only enforced it during trap competitions. Games were a different story; it was "don't ask, don't tell" on shot size then..

 

Mudpack, Now, now. Let's not be tooo conservative. A 12 ga. shotgun with the right load can break targets with great efficiency from at least 50-60 yards. Probably further. Go online on youtube and watch George Digweed going back step by step until he is shooting them at over 100 yards. And anyone who has shot "games" very often has seen a whole lotta targets crushed pretty efficiently significantly over 50 yards. We all get your point but if we couldn't break targets with skill at 50+ yards no one would shoot games much.
By the way, don't feel bad about getting banned on that other site. They are nuts and the head ban master Clint wannabe doesn't even shoot real trap. They have permanently banned hundreds, probably thousands, of real good trapshooters. They suck. That site is not about trapshooting and has not been for some time.

 

Thank you for all of your responses ! My next step (when I have time) is to build a 10 foot square PVC frame and shoot patterns from distances over 60 yards. My method will not be very scientific , I'm not going to take the time to count pellet strikes . The information that I'm looking for is the holes in the pattern . In my mind that should indicate the amount of luck and golden BBs there is involved in breaking a target from crazy distances.

I have reviewed much of the information on line ( over the last 10 years ) regarding George Digweed and he is truly an awesome shooter. I have no doubt that he can hit those crazy long distance targets. My question is this … can he hit targets from these insane distances shot after shot ? What are the percentages ? Where does skill end and luck take over on a long distance shot from a smooth barrel shotgun?

Thanks for your consideration ,

Bill Sergent

 

Federal gold medal hull (plastic)1 3/8 6's win.209 29 grain 800x rem.sp12 wad 1325 fps 10,900 psi will crush the target from just about anywhere.

 

Then you should Know That George Digweed used 1 1/4 oz #5 Copper, as Digweed said you have to Know how much your shot drops and how far to shoot over the target to where they Intercept, I knew that before Digweed did his shooting In England.
I read that article and watched it Played back several times, My Army Expert Marksman and I used this At Fort Knox Kentucky on
Targets in October 1959 and 22 rfles & Walnuts as I was also An Expert Rilfleman in all calibres shot. It comes naturally to some, and I am one of that SOME. I did 16 yard pick-ups w/ the Clubs Owner's 22 Long rifle Bullets for coon hunting rifle , it fit me good.
The Trap was set on Straight-a-ways Too in England.

GB................................DLS

 

I can relate Doc, if we got bored we would break out a bottle of Beyer aspirins (not the baby ones ) and use them for targets instead of those sewer covers we normally used and shoot from the 30 yard line ... By adjusting the size of the targets we were shooting about the same as normal targets at 60 or 70 yards ... It was actually going quite well until Roger C. suggested we shoot the pieces once the aspirin is hit on the first shot, talk about testing your eyes ... One night when we all showed up ready to shoot there were only two of us, me and Roger C., everyone else just wanted to watch ... We didn't set the trap on straight away's either so there was another level of excitement to witness ... We tried .022 with bird shot and no body did very well with it, but we tried ... I guess you had to be there to get the real feeling of the Challenge as it was happening ... (wink, wink) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

P.S. There was a lot of calling dead birds that night ...

 

LS, The video I saw with Digweed going back a few yards at a time to about 120 yards was shooting a "springing teal" type of target in a sporting clays setup. I thought he said he was using shells called "black cloud" or "black storm" or some similar name.
Back in the day when I was hunting often, we used Federal Premium shells with copper plated #4 shot. In a 3" hull with 1 5/8 oz. through an 1100 with factory 30" full chokes it was pretty darn deadly on pheasants (especially flying away with their backs to you) (and ducks) out to at least 100 yards. I carefully paced off quite a few at well over 100 yards and I was not counting the dead fall in the distance.
Cheers. Jake

 

When I played the games many moons ago I loaded 1 1/4oz of 6's using an AA hull federal primer and 19.5grs. of 700X, I can't recall the wad. Using a .040 coke in a Beretta 680 I could smoke those long-range shots. Took out 5 guys in an Annie Oakley at the 30-yard line once. Broke the target about 4 ft off the ground. They were pissed.