ATA Petition - Draft 2

A shorter and softer version.

Petition for changes within the American Trap Shooting Association – Draft 2 Date:

We the undersigned, are members, ex-members or potential members of the American Trapshooting Association, here after referred to as the ATA. We are petitioning the ATA board of directors, the executive committee and the executive director, asking for the following changes. We believe these changes will help restore trust and integrity between ATA management and its members. We strongly believe these changes are critical to the health and survival of the ATA.

Requested Changes

1. We recommend that ATA management repeal and replace the unofficial flawed process for implementing changes to rules, policies and practices with an official new change request process that provides for complete accountability, provides for complete transparency and truly puts the membership back in control by allowing the members in good standing to vote on requested changes. We believe that a majority vote by the members who voted, should rule. If this request to repeal and replace is approved by ATA management, then we would like this new change request process added to the rule book and posted on the ATA website. We would like the status of each change request also posted on the ATA website in a timely manner.

2. We recommend that ATA management analyze why their business plan/model is under preforming while business plans/models for other organizations are doing better in the same economic conditions and in the same social environmental conditions.

3. We recommend that ATA management develop a detailed action plan, identifying who is going to do what by when to reverse the downward trend in ATA membership and the number of ATA targets thrown annually. We would like this detailed action plan posted on the ATA website and kept evergreen.

4. We recommend that ATA management establish a committee with a two-fold mission – identify ways to reduce the cost to the shoot ATA targets and identify ways of providing more money with half of the total money distributed based on skill and the other half distributed based on random drawings like door prizes are done today.

We, the petitioners would appreciate your response to this petition no later than DD/MM/YR.


Thank you for your time and consideration of these recommended changes.


Signed, The Petitioners


Name


Signature


ATA number


Address


Date signed

 

I already commented on Draft 1 thread. Here I would tell you control has never been lost by the membership, the membership has no interest in exercising their control and the result would be the same with this petition. You would have to have 51% of the membership sign it in order to make effective and that won’t happen.

 

Did the members vote on covering up PULL2012?
Did the members vote to give money to build a $2.2 million building and give it to Illinois?
Why did the EC give themselves free K80 combos when it was against the bylaw?
And why did the EC move the grand to Illinois when the members voted against it?

Name one member that voted to cover up PULL2012, other than EC of course. Please name that guy.

 

One Guy you want to look long & Hard at is the past president and owner of Gun Clubs in Kansas, he was 2012PLL.

GB...........................DLS

 

Remember one thing folks.

GENERAL membership will be notified on a

NEED TO KNOW BASIS

'Nuff said ?

 

Well, the second is far better than the first. If you will re-read the Articles of Incorporation and the By-Laws, you will see that there is no requirement for the ATA to respond at all, much less by some date you favor.

It has a few errors that make it unlikely you will hear anything back. You write: "and truly puts the membership back in control by allowing the members in good standing to vote on requested changes." The Articles of Incorporation and the By-Laws are little changed from the early days; the members never have been "in control" other than by electing members of the board of directors.

You give no evidence that the process for making rules is "flawed." Nor, in fact, any evidence that the way things are being done now is in any way other than official.

The ATA is making money. In what way is it underperforming? How would you, personally, make more money if you ran it? You owe us at least that.

I have explained countless times the only way to get changes. You have to get a majority vote at a properly-called meeting of the Board of Directors. Typing is not going to change anything. Re-drafting ineffective petitions is a waste of everyone's time and effort. Corralling affirmative votes is the only effective option. Do that and you might get a bit of what you want; fail to do that and you won't. Ever.

N1H1

 

Tell us ol'N1H1 where the main mission of a "501 c 3 charity" is to "make money" .....

STOP eating crayons long enough to "re-read" the purpose of a "501 3 c charity", that uses "to promote the Sport of Trapshooting" to keep a Hedge Fund "tax exempt" and "making money" .....

"Making money" through a Hedge Fund has NOTHING to do with the purpose of the "Articles of Incorporation and the By-Laws", "from the early days" .....

May your FREE shotgun kick some clarity into your foggy little brain .....

 

Here ol'N1H1 ..... you seem too lazy to keep re-reading on your own ..... https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-p...tion-requirements-section-501c3-organizations

Tell the unwashed masses how the "ATA" complied with this in the "PULL 2012" transaction ..... "no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction."

How is that for "evidence" or "flawed" ol'great crayon eater ?????????????

 

User1

A non profit is not always a charity and this might come as a shock to you, but non profits are not prohibited from making money or even a profit for that matter. The real issue is these “tax exempt” entities governed by 503 c 3 are not subject to the same rules, regulations and tax rates a “for profit” business is. “Non profits” are constantly audited by the IRS because of their special status and if there were any irregularities going on a regular basis, they would be found by the IRS.

Our (the ATA) 503 c 3 is to promote a amateur sports organization. That money is used to provide awards and trophies, an organization with rules conduct those shoots and yes, provide money to cover travel expenses for management which is the delegates you elect and the members of the EC which are one delegate from each of the 5 zones. You guys need to read the bylaws of the ATA, read publication 555 put out by the IRS which regulates “non profits.” After you do that, come back and point out to the rest of us where the ATA is behaving in the criminal activity you think it is doing. Just make sure you show us the activity that is currently going on and not something that happened 10-15 years ago.

One final thing, if you are not happy with the delegates you elect every year whose fault is that?

 

Well "AZCOTRAP" ..... First, please tell the unwashed masses how old something has to be to make it important to you .....

Then tell the unwashed masses why it is OK, that the very same people involved in the "past", should now be forgiven just because some time has past .....

And last "AZCOTRAP," I can look in cyber-land in the land of Kool Aid and find your current post here almost verbatim there, does that make it less because it was a post from long ago ?????

 

User1

Unlike you, I don’t moan and cry in my beer after some wrong doing committed 10 years ago by some person no longer around. You feel you have been wronged take it to court, press charges, do something about or move on. I choose to move on.

You will take to your grave this terrible thing done to you while somewhere else a 13 year old junior is breaking his first 100 bird straight, thinking “what is all the fuss about shooting 100 straight, how hard can it be,”enjoying himself. By the time he is an adult, he will have never heard of Vandalia and think it is the capital city of some European country. Waste your time if you feel you must, don’t waste mine or the resources of the ATA for some imagined wrong you think has been done to you. If you don’t mind the rest of the ATAmembership across the other 48 States and 7 Providences laughing at you guys, keep doing what you are doing. It’s great entertainment, but not productive.

 

You are a little confused "AZCOTRAP" ..... My mission is to keep the past alive so any new prospects go into the "ATA" with their eyes open .....

The calendar may have progressed, but the people and actions of the "ATA" past and/or present, need to be an open book for people to judge for themselves ..... "UNLIKE YOU" and ol'N1H1 that feel anything over two days old should be covered up and never be known to the unknowing .....

 

Well fine, User1, make that your life’s mission. Just dont’t be surprised if nothing comes of your mission or no one gives a crap about it. People’s sense of history begins when they are born or take up something new. People joining the ATA won’tcare what happened 10 years ago and I certainly will not think about it when I am shooting this weekend. Knock yourself out.

 

One more little detail AZCOTRAP ..... I NEVER put in my post that a "501 c 3" is "not prohibited from making money or even a profit for that matter" ..... I used "main mission" .....

Have fun playing word games in Mental Midget Land ..... you will find it not as easy here .....

 

Regardless of the contents of the petition, I bet you would have a better chance of a response if you referred to the organization by the correct name. American Trapshooting Association. LOL!

From the first page of the bylaws . . .

RESTATED ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION
OF
AMATEUR TRAPSHOOTING ASSOCIATION
Under the Illinois Not For Profit Corporation Act

 

That’s what happens when one lives in the past.

 

AZOTRAP, can you assure the ATA membership, that checks and balances have been put in place to prevent this impropriety from ever happening again?

 

This is a Draft, that has not been proofed for mistakes. But I appreciate your concern over my typing error.

 

You have to admit, Garry your admonishments are pretty funny considering your typing error calling the ATA the American Trapshooting Association instead of it’s correct name of the Amateur Trapshooting Association.

Now what improprieties actually took place that an be verified are you talking about, other than the countless rumors that have been spread about for the last 10 years. Who was punished for what and what fines did the IRS levy against the ATA for violations of it’s 503 c 3 status? If you want guarantees, no one, not even you with your proposed changes can be given. Perhaps more care in the delegates you elect?

Like I said In that other thread, why bother with “good standing” in the requirements of being a delegate when you and other brand them all as criminals?

 

Gee AZCOTRAP ..... You are starting to act/sound like your fellow mental midgets in Kool Aid Land .....

You are not capable of an original thought, so you like to take advantage of someone else finding content for your posting ..... You seem to have failed to critique this "error" in your other posts on this thread .....

 

Original thought?

That is all you guys do, revert to the koolaid insult when someone opposes your lockstep thought.

All I am wanting to know is, it has been over a decade. Is the wailing, weeping, gnashing of teeth, rending of clothes going to go on another 10 years? Another 20? What benefit will you derive after a couple of decades of standing still, not moving on, not moving forward? I don’t understand it, I really don’t. What do you intend to gain with this constant grieving and hate?

 

What "has been over a decade" ?????

"Pull 2012" was in "2012", being it is NOT 2022 I would guess you are referring to "Sparta" .....

The "save Sparta at any cost" goes on EVERY YEAR ..... You seem to be stuck on "a decade ago", open your eyes and be in shock that other things are happening EVERY DAY .....

 

Is N1H1 & AZCOTRAP One in the same person, sounds like it to me!!!!


GB.................................DLS

 

GARRY: How can an EX-Member Vote, or Potential New Member Vote? That's like a 16 yr old voting in the US Presidential Election!!!!!!

GB..............................DLS

 

Gary, here's what I wrote:

Are you suggesting an age limit for voting on change requests?

Thanks

 

Let me say this and then I will back off and leave you guys to it, unless you think my suggestion has some merit.

Instead of a petition for which there is no lawful vehicle mentioned in the bylaws, why don’t we as ATA members, present our grievances by formal letters of inquiry through each State and Province Trapshooting Association and copy to the State Delgate who is the BOD member.

Inquiries should be presented to each Association and State Delegate by a handful of ATA members residing in each State of Province who sign their names to this inquiry. I think you should be able to come up with a few members from each State as concerned as many who post here. A small network of parties could exchange emails. Make too large a group and it will get out of hand. The letters should be form letters and able to be copied and presented by each State group.

Each subject you want addressed should be on a separate inquiry. If you overwhelm people with a compounded list or articles with too great of length and complexity, it will shut down the process or be ignored. Submit these inquires based on importance of the most serious matters, such as charges of graft of corruption, first. Wants and desires such as 3 hole targets elimination of short yardage, return to the 1960 rulebook, etc, should be made secondary.

Keep these inquires simple, brief, polite and professional. You should allow a time limit of 30 day’s for reply from the State and delegate advising they have received the inquiry and will pursue it and if you don’t hear from them, you send it again until you do. Ask for progress reports and suggest they make these inquires and follow up reports available to the general membership via the Association’s website.

 

AZCOTRAP, I can't speak for the other members of this site, but I like and appreciate your suggestion. I am hopeful, that others will jump on board. I have felt for some time now that those of us who want to make the ATA Great Again for future generation have been in a quagmire on how to proceed.

Garry

 

It is likely true that the ATA Articles of Incorporation never provided any rights for members in making decisions (control) for the organization.

However, the Amateur Trapshooting Association gave written assurance to all life members that they were voting members as it relates to the potential sale of the property, buildings and equipment (permanent homegrounds at Vandalia, OH) largely paid for by life memberships. It was the intent that the A.T.A. Constitution and By-Laws would be amended to reflect this and it was clearly stated on all life membership certificates. They looked similar to a stock certificate and A.T.A. statistician Jimmy Robinson often referred to them as such, even writing that each life member would be receiving a stock certificate.

In fact, the Executive Committee and Board of Directors were in agreement to make life members owners. Their life membership was not only an growing investment but would also be transferable.

I've never found documentation the by-laws were amended to provide for this plan but life members did have voting power on the sale of the homegrounds and A.T.A. minutes, reported it was part of the charter.

I don't believe members or life members every had any rights in any other decisions. All decisions other than the potential sale of the Vandlaia homegrounds were always made by the Board of Directors or otherwise permitted by the Executive Committee.

Delegates (A.T.A. BOD) followed the Executive Committee's November 1954 proposal to remove those life member rights and in 1955 those rights were abolished.

 

From "N1H1" in thread http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...-property-committee-question.3864/#post-36436 .....

"You make up a bunch of duties that are not there. Your worst assertion is that that state delegate is held to the state association's view of where his or her loyalties must lie.

The position of Delegate is an ATA position, not a state position. He or she works for the ATA corporation, not the state corporation. If he or she finds the two in conflict, I guess resignation is a recourse, as is his replacement at the next state annual meeting."

"N1H1"

 

Thank you. I admit I started off wrong, but I have also experienced ill mannered people on this site long before I jumped into this thread. Being called a sucker or accused of drinking the Koolaid, sets me off, it’s been done more than once. The mods should get after a few of their best buds if they want this web site to grow.

As far ownership of the ATA, our rights do not end once we elect our delegates. Those delegates are supposed to be our voices in all matters regarding the ATA. Where we have failed is (1) electing the some people who do not do any more than necessary and (2) being silent and not proactive. Once we elect these delegates we need to make sure they understand we will be watching and waiting for information about all maters ATA. The only time I hear from my own State Association is once a year with the minutes of the annual State meeting.

Our State Associations should be our go between between us and and the ATA BOD and EC. Information posted on the State’s website would go a long way as long as that information is current. It’s all about communication.

 

And that is why we become pro active and insist we, the ATA membership are represented by both the State and the delegate, otherwise we don’t need them.

 

I personally feel the need for the "ATA" has past ..... Unless you shoot the not-so-grand shoots and chase All American Points, the "State Associations" could provide everything needed for State Shoots and any other smaller shoots that may require anything needing to be "registered" .....

The "control" back at a State level, would service their active base much better than the current out of control hierarchy .....

Any "classifications" for non-resident status entries could be handled to suit the needs of the State Associations .....

No need to re-invent the wheel, just make better use of the "spare" .....

 

Only thing I would say to that is you have the largest concentration of trapshooters in the Midwest. In the West, the only large shoots are those hosted by the ATA. We don’t put on non registered, registered shoots. We still need a governing body for standards so that a shoot held in Colorado has the same standard in New Mexico. We might entertain the idea of regional associations, but I would still like to see the two largest States with trapshooters start a new National group.

The clubs where we hold the shoots need an incentive for holding a shoot that is not ATA but can still represent a large number is shooters that will show the clubs the non ATA shoots are worth holding. Right now, Colorado has only one club that hosts PITA shoots and does not get what I would call worthwhile turnouts.

 

I inquired some years ago why the PITA does not promote and or expand being as many shooters are interested in shooting registered but tired of supporting the ATA and their self serving agenda's ... The fellow I was talking to was a Delegate (?) or something to do with the PITA as well as an ATA member, his response was they did not want to get into a " Membership Tug of War" with the ATA being as they were (at the time ) a much larger organization and could make life miserable for the PITA ... I would have to think that threat no longer exists because the ATA has turned so many shooters against them over the years, that would welcome PITA shooting or Club Sponsored shoots by State organizations ... The clubs might be the hurdle if the ATA makes threats (not that they have ) to not host registered shooting at them any longer or do cross registering ... The ATA is not the power it once was and there is a need for another organization or for the State Associations to promote and put trap shooting back on the map ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Based on the comments above, I am not going to spend any more time on an ATA petition. I want to thank all who participated and I am sure a lot of your ideas can and will be used in as the sport of trapshooting evolves.

Garry

 

How is your attendance at your state shoot? Not to good I hear. Cant figure out why you need a governing body for standards in CO. Folks go there to get grand slams. Same as New Mexico. Two really competitive states you have there.

We have as many people shooting for a piece of bacon here as you do for CO state trinkets. Tell us more how to market trapshooting. We need the advice.

 

Smithy,

Ohio has almost 12 million people compared to the 6 million of Colorado. We had a music festival the same week with 10,000 people putting a real strain on lodging. Think that might have hurt our turnout? I have already acknowledged Ohio has more trapshooters than any other State, that isn’t god enough for you? I haven’t told you guys how to market trapshooting, I am telling you, our problems are different than yours, but if you don’t want to help fellow USA trapshooters,so be it. You made you point. Ohio first, last, always. Wish you well.

 

Whoopee ding dong. Worthless stat. Got graph.

PA has more I think. The problem lies with the states without many shooters having a larger per capita vote. It is all about the small states. Screw the majority of the trapshooters.