Decline in ATA participation...100,000?

In another thread there is some discussion of the membership being over 100,000 at one time.

I went back and looked through my old average books. For some reason my 1975 to 1986 books are missing so I don't have those numbers.

In 1974 the book didn't list the number of shooters, but based on the number of shooters per page and the number of pages, I'm estimating there were approx. 40,000. The book did state there was a record 74,000,000+ targets shot.

The next book I have, 1987; states there were 97,060 members and 36,505 shot a registered event.

1988 - 1994 follow this same format of listing total membership and number of members shooting at least one ATA event. In that time period the peak membership was 111,958 in 1989. The most active shooters was in 1990 @ 56,375.

In 1995 they started listing only the active shooters, but also added number of targets shot. From 1995 to 2000 the number of shooters remained fairly steady at approx. 54,000-55,000. Registered targets increased from 76,000,000 in 1995 to 85,600,000 in 2000.

In 2001 the number of shooters dropped significantly to 33,625. Interestingly, the number of targets shot only dropped to 84.8 MM.

The number of shooters remained fairly constant, but the number of targets slowly dropped to 76.2MM in 2008.

In 2009 there was another significant drop in shooters to abut 29,000 and the targets dropped to 57MM.

The number of shooters and targets have remained fairly stable since then.

As stated on a different thread there are several thousand SCTP kids in the count now.

I estimate the SCTP kids shoot between 2-3,000,000 targets in the SCTP program

There is no argument that ATA shooting has declined. However, there does not appear there was ever 100,000 active shooters in any given year.

 

Your Books do not go back far enough in time to when the ATA was really Active Try 1968-1972

GB...........................DLS

 

1968 - no summary in the book. 311 pages of shooters with a max of 110 per page.
1969 - no summary in the book. 327 pages of shooters with a max of 110 per page.
1970 - summary states 'well in excess of 50,000'. But only 347 pages of active shooters.
1971 - no summary in the book. 364 pages of shooters.
1972 - no summary in the book. 392 pages of shooters.
1973 - no summary in the book. 414 pages of shooters.

What was included in most of the books was the number of new memberships each year. The average between 70-73 was over 10,000. But each year had only 3-4000 additional shooters each year. Obviously there was a big churn in membership back then too.

Sorry Doc, the numbers don't support your statement.

 

I remember a couple of times that they changed the font of the book and also when they didn't delete deceased life members.
Ed Yanchok

 

Iowa guy makes an important distinction between membership and active members who participated in a registered shooting event.

His review supports the data in my files. While ATA statistics report a couple years where the membership exceeded 100,000, only the ATA has/had knowledge of the actual number of paid members during those years. Reason for my use of the word "had" : Prior to the relocation of the ATA Offices from Vandalia, OH to Sparta, IL, our E. C. Committee made the decision to shred a sizable portion of our historical documents. Many of us who learned of it after the fact, believe they had no authority to take this action. Those documents belonged to the organization, not 5 men who were elected to protect the institution and its history.

In my opinion, a more reliable barometer for deciding the condition of the ATA is the annual number of members who registered targets, not the number of estimated members.

While the alarm bells have been sounding for many years, our governing body has acknowledge the problem but has done little to curb the downward trends.

​

One alarming statistic that continues to be overlooked is the very foundation that supports registered trap shooting. What is that foundation? Member Gun Clubs.

Look at the decline in the number of gun clubs holding registered shoots.

​

 

Looking forward to several --PITA--Shoots this summer !!!

 

Thanks HB for the more thorough reporting of what I started.

I'm not 100% certain of what the chart the ATA put out, that you've included, is supposed to be telling us. For example in 2001 it would appear there were 33,625 active shooters with more than 500 targets and 24,737 with less than 500 targets. Yet the average book excerpt states "in 2001, 33,625 members shot in 6,414 registered tournaments. The only thing that I can think of is that <500 means 0.

I also took a look at my numbers for the 2000 year and actually brought that book to work today. As HB's excerpt above states "During the 2000 target year, 54,451 ATA members participated in one or more of the 6,430 registered tournaments throughout the world".

So I dug a little deeper. The 2000 average book has a separate section for the individual average (pages B1-B324). A full page of entries totals 109 individuals. This would arrive at listed membership of 35,316 if all the pages were completely full of members. They are not.

Then I looked at the year end summary on page A-13. Assuming that all shooters, adult and youth, are specifically categorized either male or female, the report shows 2,187 females and 29,309 Males or a total of 31,496 that shot 16 yard targets. It further shows that 28,706 members shot some handicap targets during the year.

Based on the numbers available in the average book I would have to say the 54,451 number referenced in the summary on page A-6 is inaccurate. The number of active shooters in 2000 was closer to the 32,000 - 33,000 mark.

This would also explain why there wasn't a large decrease in the number of targets thrown between 2000 and 2001.

It's a shame all the records were destroyed.

It's a shame that the ATA's summary of the year in the annual average books can't be trusted to be completely accurate.

 

Lots of records and paperwork were mysteriously destroyed during the move. This was done without notice to the BOD. Scandal after scancal. When does it end?

 

So what can ATA do if more shooters find Sporting Clays available to them, and find Sporting Clays preferable?

 

Nothing

At least nothing can be done as long as they keep the "Neil rules". I hear rumors of something around the corner.

 

Money was the draw that encouraged ATA participation. Belt buckles, shell bags and pewter plates are not negotiable currency. Add yardage, eliminate money punches, police sandbagging and make yardage harder to obtain. Having just returned from the Southern Grand and viewing the pitiful payouts should make one realize the present system isn't working.

 

Oleo; I like your post but do think even with changing "The Neil Rules", there would be enough participation ?
Big payouts require large shoots.
Shooters seem to be choosing a few shoots each year to attend and in my opinion the overall picture will never be like the 70s.

Regards.....Gerald

 

That may be true for the most part ..... because, most Weekend Warrior Shooters wouldn't/couldn't win these "Trophies" anyway .....

But, the "Big Dogs" would sell these "Shell Bags", and anything else, to the unwashed masses for "bonus money" .....

The "Average Day Shooter" WAS much like the "Average Day Casino Guest" ..... "spend" 100 bucks and "get back" 50 bucks WAS a "good day", and the rare day of a "big hit" WAS a "GREAT DAY" ..... The Casinos were smart enough to stay happy with this ..... the "ATA" not so much, their Idols needed the entire pie to become "Full Time Shooters" .....

 

Yes, shooters are choosing a few major shoots each year and ignoring the smaller feeder shoots. By encouraging more major shoots and mini-grands you're taking away any hopes of smaller clubs running profitable ATA shoots. Ultimately, without small feeder clubs, ATA participation will continue to suffer more.

In the past it was considered essential to shoot enough targets to qualify for classification at major shoots. That drove attendance at small clubs. Now, it seems no one really cares and simply accepts penalty classification while saving money. The few that do shoot enough targets to qualify are generally trinket shooters who fail to play a dime in options. The long term future for ATA trap doesn't look good without a change in thinking.

 

What can ATA do about that? Isn't it the hosting club that chooses belt buckles rather than money?

 

This is an article in the March 1980 Trap & Field Brad

 

The ATA sure made a profit on this guy. Joined as a life member and shot a grand total of 300 targets. I suppose he was the beginning of the retention problem Sir Neil so often suggests.

 

I have been a ATA member for 50 years just to give some perspective to my comments. The ATA has always had problems retaining shooting members and over the yrs all kinds of suggestions have been made, none with any significant positive impact. I believe that is largely because people give it a try and find that some are really skilled at this game. Many come to the conclusion they are never going to be competitive. They may not have the competitive drive or maybe they just do not want to devote the time and money necessary. We now have a significant portion of our registered shooting population that are not all that interested in competition. Look at the number of shooters that do not take their reductions. They are not concerned about winning. They want to shoot with their friends.

We have added categories, lowered the number of shooters necessary to constitute a registered shoot, introduced Big 50's, expanded All-American teams and added Satellite Grands and the needle has not really moved. Our state has marathons shoots and Big 50's and hardly any regular registered shoots. Between unlimited marathons and Big 50's very few clubs are interested in trying to throw a regular registered shoot especially with any meaningful trophies, prizes or cash. Our state association allowed unlimited marathons and ignored any proximity conflicts. That is how we find ourselves with the sad state of affairs of today. Tom

 

Do you suppose the hosting clubs offer "Belt buckles, shell bags and pewter plates" and Big Fifties do that because that is what their market prefers?

 

Reference the numbers above posted by History Buff.

In 2000, 54,451 members shot in 6,360 registered tournaments, totaling 85,968,505 targets registered b nearly 1,400 gun clubs.

In 2001, 33,625 members shot in 6,414 registered tournaments, totaling 84,807,974 targets registered by 1,400 gun clubs.

Can someone explain why there were almost 20,000 less members shooting registered tournament in 2001 compared to 2000 but the number of targets registered and the number of gun clubs were almost the same as 2000.

 

Of course the limited number of shooters left in the ATA prefer trinkets. The money shooters left the game as silly decisions, made by management, chased 'em away. Catering to trinket shooters accelerated the downward spiral. Amazingly, new casinos are opening up in many states as people sure like to gamble.

 

Gary, Less shooters, shooting more targets per shooter. Many are chasing the AA points, not many are getting enough to qualify for the all American teems. It is a skewered up mess, that the EC has no idea how to rectify, or if they do it is a closely guarded secret. It also has to do with the price of shooting today. Many middle class Americans can no longer afford to shoot registered targets, They now shoot meat shoots, and small calcuttas. They are still shooting, they are just not registering.
Try and get a list of the top 1000 shooters listed by the total amount of targets shoot last year and you my be able to answer your own questions. Roger C.

 

Roger, thanks for your reply. What I still don't understand is why 20,000 registered shooters decided to quit shooter in the same year - from the end of the 2000 target year to the the end of the 2001 target year.

 

Garry, I think this is your answer..

 

Oleo, If I read the article correctly, the ATA gave him the life membership. However, according to the Shooter Info Center he does have 1000 lifetime targets (900 Singles/100 Hcp). I wonder if he attended the Spring Grand in1980.

 

Sponsored shooters are a wet blanket. Many choose to avoid competing against sponsored shooters, especially in a shoot registered with the Amateur Trapshooting Association.

 

Just speaking for myself, Twenty + years ago I traveled 100's of miles on a weekend to attend shoots in PA, MD & VA. I did this 10 or 11 months of the year. For the past 20 years I have not gone to the smaller weekend shoots. I went for one reason, I could win cash. With good scores it was possible to pay for the shooting & then some. No way I will drive a 100 miles to shoot what amounts to practice. I can shoot all of the practice I want 5 or 6 days a week within 15 miles of my house. Put up 3 or 4 870's, make payoffs great again and the shooters will show up.

 

Iowa Guy,

Thanks for your reply. So, if the numbers HB posted above are off by 19,135 for the year 2000, can the numbers who shot registered targets before the year 20000 be trusted?

 

Garry,

The numbers I posted came directly from the annual average books. The answer to your above question is that the numbers used from 1988 - 2000 cannot be trusted.

I don't know how the ATA came up with those numbers but I would estimate the numbers during those years will be between 34,000 and 38,000, using the number of pages multiplied by the number of names per page from those books, just as iowa guy did.

There was not an increase of 16,117 shooters in 1988 and likewise, there was not a decrease of 20,826 shooters in 2001.

The number of shooters in 2000 was approximately 35,000 not 54,451.

HB

 

Thanks HB.

 

Forgot to add. When I was on the circuit I would go to my local club & shoot practice to stay warmed up for the money shoots. Lots of the money stuff was on a Sunday. Practiced Saturday to get ready.

 

What conundrum. I'd guess that not many others 'will drive a 100 miles to shoot what amounts to practice.' So with everybody staying home to shoot practice, nobody travels very far to compete. And with few traveling to compete, the purses and pay-outs stay low, which leads to less travelers, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

 

It's not just ATA, it's everything that we oldtimers and our fathers participated in. In 1974 the Masonic Lodge had 3,561,767 members; in 2016 it was down to 1,117,767. 69% decline - All those pastimes of yesteryear are dying.

 

Does anyone know how the Sporting Clays membership is going? I know skeet shoots have never been very big in Ohio but were mostly down south back in the day.

Columbus it's funny that you mentioned the Masonic Lodge because my old buddy E.G. Adams always said that the ATA EC was run by the Mason's, not sure if he was right or not, but a bunch of ATA Presidents were Mason's back in the day, I don't know about today, and I don't care. I've given up on the ATA. Brad

 

Brad, Every time I go to Ben Avery gun club, There are many people being instructed as to how sporting clays is done.They show a video and there is usually some one there as an instructor. Never have seen anyone there from the ATA. When a new shooter comes in to the club, the employees behind the counter steer them to sporting clays by telling the that trap and skeet are boring. The ATA knows this is going on but no one does any thing to counter act the employees. We have ex presidents and delegates that spend the winter at that club, so they have to know what is being done.
Calling the EC Masons would be a major move up from what I hear them called at a lot of the shoots I have attended.
Roger C.

 

A quick look on the nsca web site showed 28000 members in 2014. I know the number has gone up in the last few years. Seeing more new shooters all the time. There is a shoot at cardinal center this Saturday 3 31 18 that has to 200

 

Roger, you are kidding right? Ben Avery is not a “club.” It is a public shooting facility operated by the State of Arizona Fish and Game. The employees behind the desk work for AZ. There is nothing the ATA can do about AZ employees steering the public to sporting clays if such a thing was going on,which I doubt.

I have watched people come in and the ladies behind the desk ask “what do you want to shoot today?” There is a club that puts on the ATA shoots at Ben Avery, but the times I go Ben Avery just to practice, about twice a week, I have never been steered to sporting clays. More disinformation screwing up trapshooting, aimed at bashing ATA.

 

Funny. Columbus comparing today's ATA targets / game to the Elks Lodge. Yep. It is that boring. And no goes to the Elks Lodge in Sparta.

It is time for a new game.

 

"More disinformation screwing up trapshooting, aimed at bashing ATA."

The ata doesn't need any help in "screwing up". They are doing a fine job of that on their own. Moving in a fantastic direction.

1,745 and then 2,003 in the GAH event. They have about 4-1/2 months to get the numbers up to what? Maybe 2,100?

 

ASco, open up your eyes. The sporting clays people have the Ben Avery employees directing new shooters their way. I have been told so by the employees. They tell the new shooters trap and skeet are very boring, but sporting clays are fun. I have told the ATA people and all they do is shrudge their shoulders. You may be there but open up your eyes to what is going on around you. Roger C.

 

So what to do, Roger?

It’s a State run facility which you go to, it has multiple disciplines and no doubt the SC allows greater revenue return. But why condemn the ATA? Should the ATA contract with Luke AFB and make a bomb run on Ben Avery with a couple of F35’s loaded up heavy? I think you are hallucinating. Every time I am at that desk and other people are their I never hear what you claim with both ears and eyes open.

Flyersarebest, I see you haven’t changed your spiel either. I haven’t been around here for almost a year, but it is the same ole same ole, just fewer posts, spaced more days apart. Amazing you guys are going take your bitterness to the grave with you. See you in 6 months.

 

I have no knowledge of any club that puts on shoots (ATA shoots) at Ben Avery, would appreciate any information available regarding that ... I know Paul Deutsch and his wife Donnie used to cashier the shoots for AZ Fish and Game but was told he (they) was not going to do that any more, that may of changed or not, I don't know one way or the other ... I have seen a lot of Sport Clay shooters ask people who walk in if they want to join them on several occasions, I was asked and joined them a couple of times myself ... I have been up to Avery on many occasions where they have 2 traps set (one for 16's, one for handicap) occasionally one set for doubles if you ask ... I have watched dozens of sporting clay shooters on the course compared to only a few on the traps on many, way to many occasions ... Many of the old time trap shooters that I knew from up there spend more time shooting sporting and or even skeet than they do trap these days ... The facility is in fact a State owned facility operated by Arizona Fish and Game, I would assume the employees would be State Employees considering its a State owned and operated facility ... If by chance you drive into the Ben Avery facility and follow the crowd you will probably end up on the sport clay side just because there usually seems to be a lot more people on that side of said facility without even being pointed in that direction ... The facility in Illinois is actually listed as one of the State of Illinois, State Parks (WSRC) located in Sparta, Illinois ... The State of Illinois cannot afford to have full time people on staff to operate the facility due to cost over run and the State having over 25 millions dollars added to its deficit from trying to operate that facility and just break even ... Ben Avery Shooting Range on the other hand makes money for the State of Arizona ... I'm going to make it a point to start going up to Avery just to see and check what and who's going up there ... Had a lot of good times up there over the years ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

spiel:
a long or fast speech or story, typically one intended as a means of persuasion or as an excuse but regarded with skepticism or contempt by those who hear it.

THAT word would better describe the ata position and gipson's "fantasic/fantasy" direction speech.

I can't change the pathetic number of shooters that are willing to go to that place in IL. What is amazing to me is that they get even THAT many.

When you come back in 6 months you can show us all how we were wrong and over 3,500+ shooters shot the GAH this year. Of course don't come back and give us the official SPIEL.

 

BTW azco, I wanted to see if indeed you have been gone almost a year and unfortunately I see it was longer. I assume when you posted this,
"This should make you clowns happy, I asked the Aministrator to cancel my access here. I am gone. There is no such thing as a free discussion forum on this site, nothing but a bunch of thin skinned crybabies."
you didn't want to be on here with us. Did I get this wrong?

What I think we need investigated is why the "Aministrator" or I guess aDministrator didn't follow your wishes. So, which one of you high muckety muck admistrators didn't follow this guys request and cancel his access?

I for one would like to see you stick around. According to the 4 stooges we were only supposed to be here 3 months at the most. If you come on every six months you can report back to them for years that we are STILL here.

 

Azco,
The ATA has for years had the small clubs recruiting new members for them. they have done nothing to help the cause, actually they have hurt the small clubs with their actions. They increased the amount of satalite grands, if you add up all of the state shoots plus the zone shoots there is not much time left for the small clubs. Check how many clubs have stopped holding registered shots. That should tell you that something is not headed in a fantastic direction. They have no business plan to stabilize and grow the ranks of registered shoters. There is a saying about business, there is no standing still, you are either growing , or you are going backwards. The EC has deserted the membership. Roger C.

 

Flyers,

Reason I popped back in flyers, is because just joe(???) sent me an email telling me I won some sort of grand prize or status as “founding member” or something to that effect. So I looked through my passwords because I could not remember it and jumped back in here to see what it was all about. It was no surprise after I did log in, it was the old tired crap about how awful the ATA is and the continued whining of a bunch of disenchanted losers who still hold a petty grudge about something that happened over a decade ago.

Then I discovered one of my threads from that year ago time was recycled as a “blast from the past”and also found another one of Roger’s pitiful and misinformed post about Ben Avery being a club. There is no club, it is a private enterprise that hosts the shoots at Ben Avery. Yeah, I made my own boo-boo, but I was more right than Roger was wrong which is strange since he haunts the place more than I do.

Anyway, the same pitiful circle jerk wailing about the ATA is still strong, but I do notice the longer spacing of posts here. That “other” website you guys hate almost as much as the ATA has more posts in 5 minutes than you clowns do in a week. Well as you can see, I have made your week with an entertaining post far different than the tired predictable stuff you guys rehash over and over. I am taking my leave now, maybe I will look in on you 6 months ago, maybe the host will deny my access (nobody banned, yeah right) but I suspect when if and when I look in on the guys again, it will still be the same tired BS. I do not wish for your demise here, there is no good reason to visit more than once or twice a year.

 

Roger, you could do more good increasing ATA membership by inviting someone to a shoot than continued crying about EC ineffectiveness.

 

AZCOTRAP, Trap shooting is more than ATA to a lot of us. The PITA out west, Leagues in Maryland and Pa, money shoots in Ohio, protector shoots in West (by god) Va. and southern Ohio and meat shoots all over the east and mid west. Most trap shooting is non registered events and that is what keeps clubs open.

I think you are missing the point of what most on here are talking about, they want the ATA to start to listen to them and try to fix the ATA before it's gone. The hardest thing for an Alcoholic to do is admit they have a problem and until the EC admits they have a problem they will never succeed unless your definition of success is 60% fewer entries in Sparta than the glory years of Vandalia.

All trap shooting out west suffered more than back east from the move, the number of eastern shooters that used to go to Reno, Vegas, Phoenix, have gone away with the move and the money and now those clubs have folded. Ben Avery was just one club I used to shoot at in the Phoenix area, Shot Yard, and a couple others have gone along with Phoenix Trap and Skeet. I used to look foreword to the winter chain there and then in Fla. Both chains are gone for real or practical purposes. The TOO many ATA grands killed those clubs. I could go on but won't.

The posters on here rehashing the past doesn't make them wrong, indeed ever year we are proven more right. For me I will never give a pass to those who screwed up the ATA until they have all quit in embarrassment. Is that the real reason you are leaving? Brad Dysinger

 

And thus killing the not so golden goose. Cause, the truth is, this goose has never been too golden.
For a sport to generate real money requires paying spectators not participants who "gamble" their money in a shared pool. Even poker had no real money in it for other than just a few until it became a spectator sport when the showed the hole cards and put it on TV.
And like it or not, trapshooting does not attract rabid (or even many passive) fans.
But if there was a chance of attracting "fans" it wouldn't be done with the softest targets and necessary 200 straights to get into an interminable shoot off.

 

Azco, Don't you think it is kind of nice to have a place where people can disagree and have honest debate and discussion without being banned, banned and banned? You may not like or agree with much of the sentiment expressed around here but at least the Amendment which guarantees free speech (the FIRST Amendment as I recall) gets a bit of play in this forum.
But we could just all go to camp and let the headmaster and his very small staff decide what is to be discussed and how. I guess that is better.

 

AZCO, Is just a s$$t stirrer, he has nothing to add to a discussion so he antagonizes those who will state their opinions. Once every 6 months is about 10 years to soon. ROGER C.

 

AZCO is previously on the record not supporting his own ATA state shoot. He doesn't support the WSRC but he is good for a laugh.

 

Roger, you and Smithy are wrong again, but what else is new? During the last 5 years, I have attended three State shoots in AZ and two in Colorado, I have presquadded for Grand Junction where this years CO State is held. Colorado is my primary residence, but all the State Shoots until recently were held at Delta CO after MileHi closed. Delta is is in the middle of nowhere and has very few motels, eateries or entertainment venues, the same gripes you non ATA shooters claim about Sparta.

Flyersrewbest, Yes I know, it is less than a year than I promised, but you and others here so full of it, I could not let your lies and false information pass. Has a nice day.

 

AZCOTRAP, I have never missed a Grand at Sparta. I do not lie about it to any one, It is not what the shooters wanted for their home grounds. I have shot Delta, and if you think it is in the boondocks, go to Sparta. After you are done shooting there is nothing to do in that town. I enjoy my time at Sparta, several of us rent a hunt club that has 13000 acres, 2500 of them are fishing lakes. I can fish on three of these with out a non resident licence. You need a lesson in reading comprehension, I have never said I do not like the ATA. I have said many times we have very poor leaders of the ATA.
Where you come up with the idea that I am not an ATA registered shooter? I have registered about 350,000 targets in my life time shooting registered targets. I have attended state shoots in about 18 different states, and you think 3 in AZ. and 2 in Colo. is something that makes you an expert. I always HAS a nice day. Roger C.

 

Your right Roger, it was Smithy who passed the lie that I never attended a State shoot. I never hit my State shoot every year. With the amount of targets you have shot, my hat is off to you. The false information you passed on was when you told people Ben Avery was a “club” that promoted sporting clays over ATA trap. False information is not different than lying as you can see with me getting your butt all out of shape.

But to Roger and all the other ATA bashers and haters I am still at a loss as to why it burns your souls so badly when you condemn it. You say it is broken and also say it cannot be fixed. If that is what you believe, why don’t you just let it go?The ATA will be around a lot longer then this web site or any poster here. It seems to me if you want more traffic on this website, more than two or three new threads a week, you would drop the hate and venom and act like adults who talk postitive the sport they say they love. You cannot get many people’s attention when you say stuff like:

“AZCO, Is just a s$$t stirrer, he has nothing to add to a discussion so he antagonizes those who will state their opinions. Once every 6 months is about 10 years to soon. ROGER C.”

You are doing to very thing you accuse me of Roger, you are just too thick headed to realize it.

 

No.....obviously I got it right. By AZ's own words he doesn't support his own state shoot due to it's location. How about that
folks.

There ya go AZ is uninviting the trapshooting population. Hey if you don't like it....then leave. There ya go again.

 

ascotrap, THAT WAS NOT A LIE ABOUT BEN AVERY, THE HELP TOLD ME THEY SEND NEW SHOOTERS TO THE SPORTING CLAYS AGENDA. THEY TELL THEM TRAP AND SKEET ARE BORING BUT S.C.'s ARE FUN.
I am not thick headed, I can just recognize an A hole when I encounter one.
You are a ledgend in your own mind, and wish to spread you knowledge so every one can look up to you. Now you have a nice day
Just for the record I do not bash the ATA. I do bash the incompetent help that is in charge of the organization. You would fit right in with them. Roger C.

 

Smithy,

Are you saying a person must attend his State shoot every year to be considered supporting it? I was just wondering if the lame excuse for people not attending the Grand in Sparta can’t be used for the State shoot?

I am not asking anyone to leave, I am wondering why you have so much hate for something, why do you continue to let it dog you? Seems silly to stay with something you hate so much.

Roger,

You called a State run organization that offers Trap, Skeet, 5 Stand, sporting Clays and league shoots a “club” then slammed it as it it has some duty to the ATA. Ben Avery allows registered shoots of all disciplines to be held on it’ grounds.
The very fact you called Ben Avery a club is in itself a misrepresentation. If not a lie, it is not a truth. What purpose did it serve you to make such a statement if not to bash the ATA, because you also said the ATA does nothing about it, as if it could.

I still don’t believe the help would have any reason to steer shooters way from a particular disciple. I plan on going out one more time before heading back North. I’ll ask the people behind the desk and the traps if they have been told to steer people away from trap. I’ll let you know tomorrow.

For someone who does not bash the ATA, you should read some of your own posts or perhaps have someone else read them and ask them if they think such posts are written in a positive light? I can only read your posts as you write them. If your message is not coming across correctly, don’t blame me.

 

"Flyersrewbest, Yes I know, it is less than a year than I promised, but you and others here so full of it, I could not let your lies and false information pass. Has a nice day."

Please post any "lies" I posted.

I said I didn't want you to leave. How will the 4 stooges know we are still here if you don't tell them?

And BTW, is wasn't a very nice day if that is what you wanted to say.

 

AZCO, You are lacking in reader comprension. I will type real slow so even you my be able to understand what is being relayed on this post. You appear to be one of the experts that only shoot once in a while, but are expert on every thing related to the shooting sports. Time to look up the toaster again.
Arguing with an idiot is never a good practice, so I will say BYE BYE to the village idiot. Roger C.

 

Roger,

I went to Ben Avery today, talked to some big dude behind the office I never saw before, he was as wide as he was tall, buzz haircut. There were no ladies behind the desk today. I also talked to two of the trap loaders. Question I asked was is there a policy at Ben Avery to “steer” new shooters to shoot Sporting Clays over Trap, skeet, bunker or wobble. I was told there is not.

Ben Avery is not a club, it is a public facility. I doubt “the ATA knows this” and the reason no one does anything to counter this none existent problem because it does not exist and even if it did, there would be nothing that could be done.

If you have never seen someone from ATA there, you must be the only person there and do not consider yourself a member of the ATA, even though you attend ATA shoots there.

The thing you seem to not understand is if you want to know what is wrong with ATA, look in the mirror. You cannot go round making erroneous and false statements then wonder why membership is not increasing. It’s not the ATA, it’s you. I do not need to be a AAA27AAA, 500,000 target shooter to figure out the “problems” with the ATA are some disgruntled malcontents that are not living in reality. When people read your nonsense, little wonder they think ATA is on it’s last legs. ATA will be around long after you apand I are,

 

AZCO:

There are two kinds of false statements. There are those knowingly and willfully made and those made due to a mistaken belief.

If one believes another has made a knowing false statement one needs to think about whether there is/was a motive prior to using the L word. It may surprise you the shooting venue there was known by another name for years and not owned by the State of Arizona. Many remember it that way and continue to see it as a gun club.

Now if a man is at a “pro shop counter” not operated by professional shooters and hears a conversation he may interpret the conversation differently than others. The others may have have different interpretations among themselves. That is the nature of witnesses to any event.

I shoot often at a place with Club used as a portion of the name. The ownership is quick to point out it is not in fact a club in the traditional sense. There are no members and non-members. All are welcome except for the unsafe. It is not owned by any government entity.

I have shot at another couple of places owned by Government entities. One does have club as part of the name but not the other. It does not stop shooters from viewing both the facilities as clubs.

If you disagree with the use of certain nomenclature; why not say that and that alone? The use of the L word is/was not warranted. The man has/had no motive to make knowing false statements about Ben Avery.

 

The person who made the statement is a regular at the location and participates in ATA shoots there. His presence and participation burdens him with the responsibility of knowing more about the place than those who have never been there, because if he passes along incorrect information about it and the ATA’s responsibilities, then it becomes a lie, intentional or not. That hurts our sport and our organization.

 

To further my point, this whole thread is a misrepresentation of fact. “Decline in ATA participation......100,000.”

To read it and some of the following posts, one would be led to believe we once had 100,000 active ATA shooters at a single point in time. We never did. As I have already explained, the ATA grew from one member to 100,000 over a period of 80 years. The premise of the thread and the misconceptions and false statements that followed were made for the sole purpose of making the ATA look bad. Is the ATA without fault? Certainly not, but we do not need false statements, intentional or not that could cause further unrest or decline of the membership, or people not willing to join because of the apprearance unrest and decline, do we?

 

Sounds like you are describing a conspiracy. Does some other group pay informants to shoot ATA targets at Ben Avery? If I had known that; I would have signed up as an informant. They could have covered my targets, ATA daily fees and other expenses. I could have told them the pattern board is on the west end and the international bunker is on east end......of the club.

I mean, shootata.com shows Ben Avery under clubs. Do they do that knowingly and intentionally? Do they have a sinister motive? Is it a mistake of fact? Is it just their nomenclature? Are they misrepresenting Ben Avery in furtherance of a conspiracy?

 

Par4,

First part of your above post, People are first class idiots if they think they can grow an orgainization they claim they are concerned about by demeaning it, criticiizing it and spreading negative information about it. It has noting to do with conspiracy, but everything about being responsible adults. It’s like watching a feeding frenzy. Somebody starts a salacious or stupid rumor and everybody else jumps in on to act clever and be part of the cool gang. It’s kids stuff, plain and simple. If you don’t understand that, you are not very smart.

Second part, yes, it is a misnomer. The listing shout be clubs and public shooting ranges. But again, you are trying to cover for an error made by someone who should know better. If you want to wrap yourself up in another’s error and look silly, be my guest. Be part of that conspiracy.

 

Par4,

Are you even a member of the ATA?

 

You have held yourself out here as both a lie detector and an expert on human behavior. You claim to have conducted an oral investigation of Ben Avery employees regarding sporting clays steering policy. However, you have missed some big clues which may hold the answer for an ordinary person of average intelligence.

I like your question, though. Just goes to demonstrate Roger was right about your reading comprehension.

It certainly appears you have some serious bias here. Roger writes something about Ben Avery and you throw a cheap shot. The Official ATA website agrees with Roger and they merely made a mistake in your view.

Now write your trivial pursuit letter to the ATA to convince them your nomenclature regarding Ben Avery is better. Just dust off your dictionary and hire someone else to check your choice of words. I might resist the urge to mention in the letter the ATA is making you appear as less than you deserve in your eyes on AT dot com. You are doing a fine job.

 

Par4,

Roger made a claim that was untrue and wrote it to besmirch the ATA with his claim. Most ATA people who has been to Ben Avery know what Roger said and you wish to further, is complete nonsense. He made the cheap shot about the ATA because he claimed the ATA “knows about this and will not do anything about it” and you say I have a comprehension problem? But you go right ahead. I will not stand in the way of people who want to make themselves look foolish, it’s your right.

No matter how much you mock me does not change what is fact, that is Ben Avery is a public shooting range, owned and managed by the State of Arizona and the people who run it have no instructions to steer people away from trap to sporting clays. Why should they? Yes, I actually talked to a few employees about it. The facility gets the same amount of money from targets regardless if thrown from whatever trap is located on any given field, 16 trap and skeet, 2 sporting clays, 1 bunker and 1 wobble. FYI, they have rifle, pistol and a huge archery range. A search by you on the internet will back up all I have said here about the facility. It makes more sense they encourage visitors to try any and all disciplines they offer and not “steer” them to just one. You are just being a crybaby because you cannot bash the ATA without getting called on it.

From the website:

• “Founded in 1957, the Ben Avery Shooting Facility, formerly the Black Canyon Shooting Range, is one of the largest publicly operated shooting facilities in the country.
  
  Our world-class shooting range is a City of Phoenix Point of Pride. It has received a Five Star rating from the National Association of Shooting Ranges. This means that it is the best of the best at providing a quality recreation experience and is the first government facility to receive this designation.
  
  Located on 1650 acres in north Phoenix, the facility averages more than 120,000 shooters per year. The facility offers are wide array of target shooting opportunities. This shooters’ paradise is home to a number of regional and national class competitions and other major events.
  Ben Avery Shooting Facility is funded by the revenues generated by user fees and federal dollars appropriated through the Pittman-Robertson Act.”
  

 

BTW, Par4, you are right, I do have a bias. I am a member of the ATA and I want to keep it strong. It has it’s problems, but does not need the ramblings of some half baked social media clown who spews nonsense in the attempt to hurt the ATA and make himself look cool and important to his followers, be part of the in crowd. You hate the ATA, fine, your certainly entitled to your bias as well. Just don’t expect me to believe the same silliness you do.

 

I'm not to sure anyone has to pour salt on the wounds that the ATA them self have opened and created over the years ... I have been a Life Member of the ATA since 1975, have seen many changes over the years that have caused more problems than cures by the ATA leadership and elected officials ... The ATA has been made into a Cash Cow for many over the years and a lot of members resent that because that was not how and why the ATA was founded and established in the first place ... My initial impression of the ATA was no doubt a result of those who were in attendance at the shoot as well as the way it was run by the club hosting the shoot (Maywood Sportsman Club , Elmhurst, Ill) and made me feel like it was something I would like to be a part of ... I actually bought a Life Membership on the second day of a two day shoot at that club because i felt that good about it ... My personal opinion has changed, been altered or modified over the year as a result of direct dealings with the ATA officials ... To say I was not and am still not impressed to this day would be putting it mildly ... The ATA has many problems and if by chance a person does not see or realize that by whats been happening to the membership and shoot attendance (grand) over the years they been hitting the Kool aid to hard ... Ben Avery does not need the ATA, if anything the ATA needs Ben Avery or they will lose another facility to host shoots ... Ben Avery is not going away so like it or not live with it, wish the same could be said for the ATA ... WPT ... (YAC) ...