You Wussies - 3/4 Ounce Loads

Hey, all you "Big Dogs," listen up.

I got my new MEC 3/4 ounce charge bar, so I've been making some new loads to make 16 yard trap more challenging. In my first batch of these things, my rounds have dropped from 23-25 per round to 20-22, a round, but I'm getting better.

When I first tried the new load, I was getting chips, but I'm starting to get good hits and smoke.

I've proven that a 3/4 ounce load will break targets, so my question is, why aren't the Big Dogs and Hot Shots shooting a more challenging load? If I can take a few years off from Trap and get 22 with a light load, the Big Dogs should be able to smoke them all, in short order.

Let's see the best in this sport go to a lighter load so we can start having some better competition and matches settled in perhaps as few as 50 shots.

 

I'm far from what anyone would call a "big dog". I mean FAR,FAR,FAR from it, but when anyone asks why I shot a 12 ga. at registered targets I tell them because I wasn't allowed to shoot a 10 ga.

You don't have to make EVERYONE that owns a loader or every shell company that sells "trap" loads change over to 3/4 oz. shells. I'm pretty sure you know what the ata would have to do but since people seem to like the way the targets are set now that won't happen.

 

Professional practice shooters shouldn't need any more than a 1/2 oz. load. After all, they're only competing with similar non-competitive wannabees who need an additional excuse for their incompetence.

 

There is no rule that says anyone cannot shoot 3/4 oz loads but there is one saying you cannot shoot more than 1 1/8 oz loads ... Big Leo III was asked once why he shoots 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 s for handicap, he said because 1 1/4 - of 6's are not legal ... There is the man who would know ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

My league team brakes low man ties {low man buys the beer} with the 1 3/4" 12 gauge minishells - 7 1/2 shot -5/8 oz. loads at 1175 fps--- .Surprisingly a clay busting load. Ron

 

Because they can break more targets with heavier loads.

 

All I heard was a chicken screeching "bwaak! bwaak! bwaak!"

Take some shot out of your load, and see if you're really any good.

 

I got news for you sunshine. I can post better averages in any discipline with any amount of shot you prefer anytime your man enough. Of course, I have posted averages which a professional practice shooter like yourself can only dream of. Just remain a keyboard 80% average wannabee only your closest non-competitive ilk are willing to discuss while shooters like me compete with the best. I'll be at the Southern Grand in March (it's in FL) so bring your Mossberg 500 and let's go at it!

 

Don't get mad, chicky-boy. Call me when you're man enough to load some 3/4 ounce shells in that $10,000 gun.



By the way, it's utterly cowardly and pathetic to see you comparing yourself to me as some benchmark of success. For all the shooting you've done, you should be far ahead of me, not just a few points. If you're as good as you say, what's your average in International Trap?

Let me know what you post with 3/4 ounce shells.

Yeah, thought so. Back to the barnyard, chicky-boy.

 

You actually bought a $15,000 shotgun?

I really don't care where you shoot. If you want to shoot with me, you need to ask nicely, receive permission, and I'll tell you where to be. Better yet, a postal match is just fine. I know you need to shoot in Tampa, but I shoot in crappy wind, rain, and snow. I posted my 3/4 ounce scores. Let's see yours. Can you handle the honor system, poultry breath?

I know some of you other shooters are going to be in Tampa with this guy. Call him out. See what he shoots with 3/4 ounce loads.

 

Actually my family owns three K-80's and the cheapest one retails at $15,000 and the most expensive at $27,000. My current go to gun is a 40yo Winchester SX-1 I paid $450. So what does it really mean in the scheme of life-nothing.

Up here in PA we shoot in crappy weather too. We have this little 400 member 25 target Winter league that shoots in snow, rain and wind. I'm not embarrassed to post my scores in competition and mine are up on our website for all to view. So far-25,25,25,25,22,25,23,24, and 25-one target behind former ATA Clay Target champion Malmstedt.

May I suggest you begin your fantasy of competing with me by starting with my 11 yo son. You might get lucky and beat 'em but don't count on it. He did shoot off for runner-up sub-junior in the handicap at Cardinal Center last year with a 94.

After graduation from 11 yo's you might move up to my 4-time PA ladies champion wife who competes with the finest lady shooters in the country on a regular basis. I'm sure you've been beaten by more than a few ladies so you shouldn't feel real embarrassed.

I wouldn't waste a bit of time shooting with the few "bunker boys" for pink ribbons and fake coins. Live birds in the ring is the real man's game where you put up or shut up. I held my own when I was younger. No fairy boy loads in that game where 1 1/4 oz. rock your world are the standard.

Move along son you're way out of your league!

 

Oops Smokin'. I missed a few league scores. Let's try again. 25,25,25,25,22,25,23,24,25,24,24,25. One target behind the leader-a top ATA All-American.

 

Smack down!!!

 

I have no interest in competing with you. That was your idea that you're now running away from. I mean, if you want to, fine, but I don't care.

I kind of respect your shooting ability, but I don't put you anywhere near the same rank as a World Cup shooter. You shoot an easy event. You run from any real challenge. Your excuses are lame. You've had an entire lifetime and a lot of money to get good at this game. I take four years off and bust a 24 with a gun I built from parts. That's why I bought the charge bar.

In response to noting that you shoot easy targets and won't step up to something challenging, you attempt to goad me into shooting live birds? That's pretty low. I know some people on this forum shoot live birds, but in my circles, anyone who did that would be an outcast. That's not ever something you could admit to. Plus, I feed birds. They chirp outside my window.

Don't bring your kid into it. It's pretty low to hide behind your kid.

Look at how crazy you're being at the simple exhortation to try a lighter load to toughen up the game. You're letting me know I'm right.You're letting me know I've got you and your accomplishments all figured out.

When you're perfectly willing to handicap by yardage but go nuts at the suggestion to reduce shot charge, you let me know that shot charge and perhaps gauge is the true way to handicap.

Load up some 3/4 ounce, and we'll do a postal.

 

Come back to the 27 yd. line junior. and tell all of us again how easy Trapshooting is.

My wife broke 49/50 with a 28 ga. tube in her Krieghoff one day just for shi's and giggles. Nothing to it.

24/25 times 4 equals 96/100. That won't even get you into a shootoff at any decent ATA shoot in class D

The late great Frank Little (of course you wouldn't have known him) shot for the USA bunker team and always said the 27 yd. line was his biggest challenge. The Trap God spoke.

In 1969 I got into a shootoff with our future USA Trap gold medal winner Don Haldeman and won. I doubt you weren't much more than a gleam in daddy's eye in 1969.

Now junior, keep proposing we replace all existing trap machines with wobble units instead of adding yardage. This site needs a few more laughs.

 

I wonder if I could break more from the 27 than you could on the International field. Remember, you're supposed to be the Big Dog.

If 49/50 can be broken with a 28 gauge, then that's what good shooters should be shooting. You keep proving my point. If 96/100 won't get into a shootoff, you keep proving my point. Really, you just keep walking into it.

Again, leave your wife out of it, though it sounds like she has better chops than you. I notice you didn't post what you shot with that 28 gauge.

That you shot ATA against an International Trapshooter 100 years ago doesn't let you extrapolate anything from that, any more than parallel parking a car better than Carl Edwards means you could drive a race car better than him.

If you think you're good at International Trap, shoot it, and post the scores. The best shooters are the Olympians, and you know it.

You keep chickening out. You keep wanting to shoot that same easy target with full house loads. You don't mind backing up, because you have it figured out.

 

So where at the Southern Grand can we meet and settle this once and for all. I think at least $10/target in bet money should be sufficient to prove whose got a set. Oh, I know, you say Trap is too easy so let's head over to some obscure bunker with a .410 and really show our talents. Since I shoot trap and you pretend to do so I'd say we're about equal.

My $450 SX-1 against your $250 Mossberg 500. I'll even spot you 1 bird. Speak up boy or continue to be a pretender!

Junior, I'd say my 11 yo has a bigger set than you'll ever have because at least he chooses to compete.

 

You can't be serious. Really, you cannot be a serious adult with that response. The question on the table is whether a .75 ounce load is more challenging than a 1.125 ounce load. That's a matter of Physics. Whether you fly to Tampa or Los Angeles is irrelevant to that question of sporting performance. Whether you shoot against me or anyone else is irrelevant to that question of sporting performance.

The only way of proving whether a .75 ounce load is more challenging than a 1.125 ounce load is to obtain data. That data comes in the form of shooters taking shots at targets. I've posted my data. The only way you can support your position (which still isn't clear) on the subject is to respond with your own data, which you've refused to do. I'm really not sure why you're wandering all over the field with these irrelevant distractions.

You're weird argument therefore takes this form:

You've found yourself in an astronomy department where a smart scientist says "The Moon is 238,900 miles from Earth." You respond by saying, "Son, I've been looking at the Moon a lot longer than you, Boy. Don't think you can talk about the Moon around me. My wife and son have looked at the Moon a a lot longer and a lot better than you. We've even won Moon-watching competitions, so you let me talk about the Moon, boy." Everyone in the room looks around uncomfortably, shifts in their chairs, until a scientist says "Yes, that was interesting, so, as we were saying..."

This discussion is a question of data, not Florida trap ranges. Respond with some data on your performance with .75 ounce loads.

 

Let's see. Smokin' hasn't fired at a trap target for 4 years but decides trap is too easy. Then he suggests we trash out all existing trap machines and bring in wobbles. Next he's asked to prove just how good he can shoot and he decides we should all shoot 3/4 oz. loads to even out the competition. I'd say whatever smokin' is smoking to please supply me with a bit for my chronic stiff neck.

Please take your customized Mossberg 500 assault shotgun with the add on collapsible stock and military handguard over to the local bunker-pip squeak loads and all, I'm sure you'll be welcomed.

 

Interesting thread. Reminds me of when I was in 8th grade...........

 

I see you couldn't resist opening the thread and following the discussion. Good for you!

 

Is that the gun board equivalent of doxxing? It's pretty lame, whatever it is.

Back to the point, are you going to shoot some 3/4 ounce loads and post your scores?

 

If I was competing against a few of my nobody friends or myself I'd consider it. Since the competition in my area is composed of some of the finest shooters in the country-most of whom shoot 1 1/8oz. loads-it behooves me to sacrifice any advantage to them. Winning isn't anything it's the only thing.

Since your so-called experiment with 3/4 oz. loads didn't account for any substantial variables such as wind, temperature, distance, background, velocity, choke, gun or quantity of targets, I'd suggest you take your limited data and place it within easy reach of the commode-or at least supply us with a chart and graph.

 

Another lame evasion.

You can't be serious. Those "variables" of .75 ounce loads are randomly assigned, and are identical to the variables encountered when shooting 1.125 ounce loads.

The sole hypothesis being tested is whether scores differ when shooting .75 ounce loads as opposed to 1.125 ounce loads. Post both sets, and compare. The more sets we have posted, the more we can extrapolate a conclusion across the body of shooters.

 

I suggest you propose a poll to all the members, the ATA and the shell companies with your concept. Let's see how many more than one (yourself) respond positively to your ideas.

I kinda remember in the early 80's when I shot an entire season with 1oz. loads. I also remember breaking around a dozen 99's but no hundreds. If you actually believe top shooters will somehow fall flat with reduced loads I've got a bridge in Brooklyn NY I'm willing to sell you-cheap.

 

I don't care about your proposal. I care about data. From data, we can then have further discussions.

The .75 ounce load is lighter than the .875 ounce Olympic load, as ATA is easier than ISSF.

A 1 ounce load is 11% less shot than a 1.125 ounce load. A .75 ounce load is 33% less shot than a 1.125 ounce load. When you shot that 11% reduced load, you saw a handicap. Presumably, you'll see a further handicap as you remove another 22% of shot.

I have no idea what "fall flat" means, but I'm confident we'll see fewer 300 straights with a .75 ounce load. The goals are to increase missing to reduce total shots fired and to increase the spread between the best and the worst shooters.

As to adoption of my ideas, I'm merely following what the top organizations have already imposed. Across the world, an International target and a .875 ounce load are the standard for top competition. Faster targets and lighter shot charge are the way of things outside the U.S. Why are we unwilling to toughen up the sport?

 

I see you fail to understand top shooters are also accurate gun pointers-meaning-they put the load on the target. Lesser specimens like yourself fail worse when limiting a payload. You also fail to understand no one cares what load bunker boys shoot as their numbers are so limited compared to American Trap. I don't care much about an organization whose members and governing body are unable to find the deodorant aisle in the supermarket.

That said, I suggest again to run a poll with the ATA, site members, ammunition companies and your few constituents. Your limited personal data is quite meaningless.

 

We'll see. Only one way to find out.

 

smoking357,
I shot bunker when the men shot 3 1/4 X 1 1/4 copper of nickle plate 7.5's. No wuuuuuussssies ever stepped up to the line. THE SISSIES CAME ALONG AND HAD TO LIMIT THE SHELLS TO FIT THEIR STATURE. Can you list the major events you have won? What is your long run from scratch? Roger C.

 

Roger, you're actually trying to say that it's tougher to shoot more lead than less? That's some serious spin and self-delusion.

 

Roger, you're wasting your time trying to reason with a non-shooter. Even a wannabe has more credentials.

 

"Reason?" That's what you dare call those ramblings?

I see you still haven't posted any scores with 3/4 ounce loads. Until you do, you're just a barnyard chicken, just bwaaking away.

 

I've got a better idea. You post all your scores shooting at 5 different clubs in varying weather conditions over the last 4 months with 1 1/8oz. shot. Oops, I've already done that. I see the barking dog has no bite and ran away with his tail between his legs. Non-shooting, not-competitive wannabes tend to do that.

 

Impossible. You have never had a better idea than me.

Still waiting on your 3/4 scores.

BWAAK!!!!!!

 

Off the record I just tried it yesterday. 25,25,24,25,25,24,24,25,25,24,25,24. Of course, I was the only one present but what does that matter. No scorer was available but I know I seldom missed. My Mossberg 500 with plastic extending stock and military style handguard proved entirely capable, even with those minimal modifications. I even used my factory MOD extended choke tube hoping to give those cold, wind driven targets a break but simply nothing to it.

Just think if I would have used my $15,000 K-80 with a PFS stock, and Allem release trigger. Simple modifications like that would likely have produced a nearly 100% average-even with those 3/4oz. wussie loads. That's it, I'm calling my ATA delegate today and inform him he must get pipsqueak loads on next years agenda meeting.

Then I woke up and realized it was just a stupid dream. Oh well, stupidity isn't limited to dreams.

 

smoking 357,
Are you going to answer my questions? Real shooters would like to know a little about your expertise. So far all we have is you rambling 's.about 3/4 oz. loads. Take off your tutu, man up and tell us of all of your accomplishment using you shooting abilities. Roger C.

 

Your so-called "questions" are off-topic irrelevant nonsense. Are you going to shoot some 3/4 loads? If yes, fine. Post your scores. If not, you're adding nothing to the discussion and are wasting my time.

If you're not going to man up and shoot some challenging loads, you can hang out in the chicken coop with Oleo, and you guys can "bwaak" yourselves silly.

Here's the thing you two don't get: You can't break a target by talking to it. Grab a shotgun, and head to the Trap field. It's more rewarding than talking about what you think you'd do at the Trap field.

 

Oleolliedawg,
smoking357 is just a shit stirrer. Ignore him and he will fade away like a bad fart. It is not worth reading or commenting on his posts. I doubt if he even has a gun let alone knows how to shoot one. If he does it's a good thing he did not have to pass an intelligence test to obtain it. bye-bye smoker. Roger C.

 

That's it, Roger. Chicken out. Pretend like there's no effort, whatsoever, to make Trap a more challenging sport.

 

I have a question smokin357.
WHY would anyone want to shoot 3/4 oz loads. So it was more "challenging"?
From your original post it looks like you were breaking 23-25 before you decided to shoot 3/4 oz. I would say someone missing 2 per 25 was still being challenged.
Now, if you would have been breaking nothing but 25's and 100-200 straights I could see where you might feel the game of singles was too easy and to test yourself you decided to go to 3/4 oz.
Myself, I can't break them all, all the time, so I think sticking with 1-1/8 would be the smart move for me. Why don't you shoot 3-4 thousand of these "challenging" loads and come back and tell us how your scores were. I would like to know.

On a final note. I know you started this just to get a discussion going and maybe a little winter fishing trip but all the "your a chicken" stuff is just stupid.

 

Obviously.

Hardly. 23-25 for occasional shooting is far too high a success rate. Above 95% in NRA is Master. Occasional shooters should not be able to come anywhere near a master level.

Nope. Not even close. 100 shots is far too many to take when the question could be definitively settled in far fewer shots.

Nah. If you're even close to breaking them all, the game is too easy. Don't you get bored?

Huh? What's so special at 3K? I'll probably get there, but not sure what happens at that mark.

Nope. They're chicken, and I've got them and their fears nailed. They won't get to be better shooters ready for tougher competition if we keep coddling them.

American Trap need to have its success reflected in Olympic gold. We're very far from that when we throw full house loads at targets that go half as far, half as fast, and don't vary in elevation.

Do you think any ATA "Big Dogs" have a prayer at competing at a World Cup? Do you realize how badly they'd get trounced? Anyone who wins a World Cup or Olympic event for the U.S., I'll believe is a good shooter.

 

I agree Roger. Did some Google search and found that he did the same rant on Target talk.com back in 2011. Just a troll.

 

Not sure I follow that argument. You're saying because I said something in correct 2011, you don't have to listen to something correct in 2018?

Wow, buddy.

 

You have been beating this dead horse for almost 7 years. In the post I referenced you called out everyone for not using your favorite 3/4 ounce load. You also liked to use the word chicken back then also. This thread is turning into a 3rd grade playground fight of double dog dare you. Until the rules are change that I have to use less shot I am not going to handicap myself. And I have for shit and giggles ised my 28 gauge at 16 yards, it will break targets, no argument.

 

OOPS!
Like I said, a little winter fishing.
Damn funny how the stuff people post on the net never goes away huh?

 

BT-99 & SKB,
It is not hard to pick the wanta-bees out from the real shooters. smoking357 will never even be a serious wanta-bee. He does not seem to have the drive it takes to be in the top tier. ability talks and bull shit walks, I think shooter357 only shuffles. Roger C.

 

You're a funny guy. You're all whining about Trap being dead, and you're doing nothing to fix it. In the rest of the world, lighter loads are the standard, and their teams compete in the Olympics.

It's not "funny;" it's wonderful. I'm immortal. 1,000 yes men will be forgotten. Only interesting and bold ideas are later consulted.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

— Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

 

Roger, he admits he hasn't shot a Trap target in over four years-until recently. At that rate I'll likely be pushing up daisies before he gets to 3,000. You might even join me. Every site needs a fool.

 

So the USA doesn't have teams/shooters in the Olympics/world cups?

 

That guy Frank Little was a medalist in Skeet and bunker in the Olympics. Also said the 27 yard marker was the toughest. But that was pre-95. Time for a graph.

And he never broke 100 at the GAH.

 

Darn good live bird shooter too. I'll betcha Brad could verify that one. Notice, we didn't yet have voice releases when he died.

 

That's not what I said, was it?

Here's the Men's 2016 Olympic Trap results. The U.S. didn't even make it in.

https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/shooting/trap-125-targets-men

We did make it into Double Trap.

https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/shooting/double-trap-150-targets-men

Great work by our guys in Double Trap. That's a tough sport.

 

Frank Little was an outstanding shooter and one of the few great crossover shooters.

 

You made a blanket statement about Olympic trap, so yes that's what you said. And you forgot our women shooters, namely Corey Cogdell. She won a bronze medal in trap.

 

It's polite to understand context and to have the manners to stay on the discussion that's actually being conducted.

 

I knew Frank Little. Trust me, you'll never be a Frank Little.

 

What a truly vapid comment. Where do you work where this is considered some sort of insight? This is what happens on these gun boards. Someone loses on the main point, so they continually take the subject ever further off topic in hopes of finding some ground upon which they hope they aren't so easily defeated.

The fact you can't run from or obscure is that less shot makes for a more challenging game. As American Trap needs to become significantly more challenging, reducing shot load is likely the best means of toughening up the sport.We could reduce gauge, but we get to the same point by reducing load, and there's no need to purchase new equipment.

 

When you refer to Frank Little by name be aware you weren't qualified to carry his shellbag. I shot with Frank and against Frank and am honored to mention him as a very missed friend. You sir, are a charlatan.

 

"What happens on these gun boards", is someone who is clueless tries to start preaching to those who have traveled many miles down the road .....

Heck, try breaking all 25 targets from the hip, it adds "a more challenging game" that you don't have to "reload" shells for ..... just buy some "cheap shells" and go for it .....

 

I stand by my statement he is a shit stirrer. Every site needs a little amusement now and then, we just had ours. Roger C.

 

What miles, User1? Really, what miles? Show me something that impresses me, wows me, amazes me. How many of these people shoot something really difficult? They're afraid to shoot 16 yards with a light load. They won't shoot wobble, five stand, or sporting clays. I'll shoot at clubs with Wobble, and I can't get any of these 99 average guys to join me. If this representative of the fight in American trapshooters, we're a long, long way from winning the Olympics.

I shoot Bunker when I can. It's hard, really hard. It's far harder than ATA. I know the ISSF knocked the Olympic load from 1 1/8 ounces to 24 grams (<7/8 ounces) to make the sport tougher, and scores plummeted for a while. Less shot = harder target.

You can't break a target by talking to it. You actually have to shoot the thing.

Why all the resistance to making the sport tougher. How can anyone think things are fine when there are scores of 300/300?

 

All this wisdom from the lips of a nobody who hasn't shot a clay target in over four years. Boy, am I impressed.

That said, I can recall a fun shoot sponsored by our good friend, former Winchester rep.John Muir many years ago. Part of the program was 25 wobble targets thrown from an actual below ground bunker. I was defeated by no other than Frank Little 25 to 24. I remember Frank broke all 25 with one shot. No real difficulty there.

Since my high score at Sporting Clays was only 96/100 I must defer to our resident expert who I'm sure averages much higher-in his dreams. They used to call his game Jacks when I grew up.

 

Bwahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!

I got a 24 today with my 3/4 ounce shells. Missed the first one, then ran the next 24.

Good, strong hits, too. Still fiddling with the load.

Ever get a 24 with 3/4 ounce shells, Oleo? Didn't think so. Guess I hold a mark that you don't.

 

He's baaaak.

 

You're just one letter shy of "bwaaaak." Come on, you can't even say "nice shooting"?

 

Breaking 24 is pretty good. Keep practicing. Only 2,975 more to go to see if it really works.

 

If I break 72 over the next 75, I'll be looking for a 1/2 ounce wad.

 

I can shoot some really amazing scores too with no one keeping score and no actual record of my accomplishments. I remember breaking 1,000 straight with my trusty Mossberg bolt action .410 just last night-then I woke up.

 

I don't doubt his scores. I'm sure he could get the others that were there to post that he really broke those targets.

Smokin357, all you have to do is to get the Tin Man, the Scarecrow, and the Lion to verify that they were there and that will prove you did it. Of course if Toto replied no one would believe you because we know a dog couldn't pick out the single keys to type. That would be just silly.

 

Oleo, your #70 comment reveals some insecurities and personality weaknesses you might want to work on.

"Keeping score?"

"Actual record?"

The thing is, I posted the "actual record" of my score.

If you have difficulty accepting others' self-reporting of scores, details, accomplishments, whatever, these are the thoughts of someone who feels that he has to prove something to others, needs approval from others, and has difficulty trusting others. You'll feel more fulfilled and confident if you get away from that. The only opinion about you that matters is your own.

This need for external validation is at least partially explains why you don't want to shoot Bunker or a small shot load.

 

smokingweed,
If you are as good a you claim to be why not go to 1 1/8 oz.loads and clean up at the large shoots? You could set records, and also win a lot of money. Go for it you could be a large part of trap shooting history. Historians would write about your abilities for years to come. Or are you only a ledgend in you own mind? Roger C.