Tomorrow's Meeting Not For The Financially Challenged Mind

Rumored details allude to very complex financial equations to be employed in the latest MOU or tentative agreement. Illinois will most likely have no financial investment in the new agreement. All monies needed to operate the WSC for four months in 2016 will be provided by the ATA and Signature Sponsors. Illinois sought to remove any financial liability and it appears they have achieved their goal. Currently it seems the WSC will remain shuttered eight months of the year and operated by the ATA the other four months. Hopefully the ATA will use the "New Math" to show a profitable operation which may last three maybe four years on the outside. They actually do have a plan!

 

Why do they need the place for 4 months?

 

Good question but I'm sure it will be explained as hopefully will be the ability to make enough money to pay for everything. They have a plan.

 

Having the place closed for 8 mos a year would be a terrific incentive for Illinois to divest themselves of the property. I can see it becoming a gigantic shopping center in the not-to-distant future.

 

Ah ha! I think you just unveiled the second part of the plan. This is the part the Martin money seems suited for if the ATA can do a proper sales job.

 

The problem with building a gigantic shopping center in Sparta would be much the same as building a gigantic shooting facility there , the population of Sparta does not support it ... The problem is getting people to drive off the beat path to do business there, much the same as a gigantic shooting facility or another kind of business (except WalMart) that will not draw a crowd ... I could not see any investment group (organization) buying into any facility that has proven itself to be a loser, not once but every year over the course of 11 years like the WSRC has ... The ATA has built a bank account while the State has added to its deficit, but the ATA has not generated enough money to take the place and have it in full operation or even on a temporary without putting a lot of money at risk based on past performance ... How many people are going to stand in line to put up money on a continual basis once it again proves to be a loser ..? The State is smart to separate itself from anything to do with the facility and cut its losses ... It will be interesting to see where and how it goes from there ... The facility is a loser, need proof just look at the numbers ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

My gut feeling is the ATA will have a permanent home in Sparta for Many Years to come.

I just have a hunch that the place will come under Private ownership within a few years, having the State sell this place to private investors.

Any losses go on the tax returns and could be good for the many who enjoy trap shooting, but need these write offs.

It may be a few years, but if I were to bet on it, this would hold good odds.

My belief is the ATA shooters deserve this so they aren't going through the ordeal of the past year, year after year.

Today's announcement shall only be the beginning of a new era, and a good one I hope.

 

As I stated before why even have the burden of a home grounds, the Vandalia Facility came about from dedicated wealthy shooters when property was cheap, we could have still been in Vandalia with the offers made by Dayton for the land just west of it's former facility, this was the result of poor, very poor decisions of the ATA BOD, and EC, and still have been in the Heartland Of Trapshooting, because the Life Members would have stopped it in it's tracks, the decision made in 1955 to remove the powers of the life members, took away what would have been, and kept the GA in Dayton, Ohio, Vandalia Area.

So now you see the results of poor management, unbelievable isn't it fellow Life Members. We had Home Grounds w, buildings all paid for. Now you see why so many Life Members are so hacked off.

Gary Bryant..........................Dr.longshot

 

When will you stop beating the Vandalia drum?? There was no viable offer on the table from Dayton at the time the decision had to be made. The ATA took what was offered for the simple reason that they did not have a location or have the funds or the backing to buy the ground and build a facility such as the one at Sparta.

The ATA supplied the traps.. and the line help... so for $3 a hundred we were handed the biggest shooting facility in the world and not a dime of our money spent to build it. Personally... I think we the trap shooters got a fantastic gift

If not for the generosity of Mr Fishburn .. Ohio would have been out in the cold with no place to hold their own state shoot.

 

If I could FlaLagarto I would double "like" your post.

 

Mr. Fishburn did not build that by himself. It was a huge project with people involved from 4 states. It seems to irk you. It is not leaving.

There were 3 other sites as noted many times excluding Fishburns. One was already up and that was Middletown which already existed. Are the facts important?

It was the most expensive blunder ever made by the ATA. It pushed the GAH to lows that were not seen since before the Korean War. Lower this year I expect. It will be lucky to be as big as during the depression.

The biggest thing CC haters ignore is that they were throwing registered targets at the CC before Sparta.

The facts change a good story.

 

I have no idea where you get that idea... I have been attending, shooting and vending at the CC for several years now. You've NEVER seen anything negative posted about the CC from me .. . I did complain about the target setting at one of the shoots 2 or 3 years ago

Just saying... since you seem to be up in a tizzy over "facts"

 

That depends what table you are talking about. If you mean the items that were permitted to be on "the table" by the EC. Those items were kept off "the table." They were never permitted a vote. Why did they have to be from Dayton? Several of the places were close to Dayton but as you know and stated did not get put on the table,

Those other places are well documented. I detect a resentment about the CC.

 

Sit back and watch what happens to the $3.00 per hundred with the ATA (or Co Sponsor) having to pick up the tab , they will not only have to increase prices and hustle up a bunch of shooters or take a big hit ... POP CORN AND BEER will be at a premium at the concession stand ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

That resentment is totally self imposed because you have never seen or heard me express it.

As for places on the table.. the ATA set a criteria of what was needed... Not one other site put an offer on the table by the dead line they set that met that criteria. End of discussion, you can assume anything you want.. you can pretend to know anything you want. But the facts are the facts. They took the "only" offer they had.

 

The other offers were not permitted on the table for vote. They were there in plenty of time. Reports are Acklin was awarded a 54k gun for his efforts.

By that you of course mean the delegates that had no idea of the shananigans behind the scenes.

End result....we put our flagship shoot in an area where it was going to make a few wealthy and then fail. And it quickly failed. What the EC did not see coming was the Cardinal Center throwing targets before Sparta.

This has to remind many of the HOF. $2.1 million plus spent on a building that was built for the state of Illinois. And not one delegate has come forward to say they knew it was going to be owned by the state.

The Cardinal Center is succeeding because it is away from the corruption of Sparta. And you know that frosts your britches.

 

Flalagarto,
The Due Diligence, I am sure you have seen it before was eliminated by them getting involved with a lease rather than a purchase ... The ATA paid a lot of money to comprise the list of things (due Diligence) that were had to be and some that could go either way on ... There was very little on the list that complied with the needs and or wants columns ... The members got screwed and they are going to get screwed again and again until the ATA is broke and does not have a pot to pee in ... The best offer they had was from Texas where they would of been owners and had virtual free money to construct the facility ... Jimmy Borum and Jeff ??? something posted the particulars many times over and they got ignored ... Due diligence went out the window and they settled for what they got in the middle of NO Place, Illinois ... It will come back and bite them, trust me on that ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Once again... you are wrong. You have no idea how wrong you really are. But you just keep beating that drum... I'm sure the good Doc will pat you on the back and give you a great big Atta-Boy

FYI... the delegates had no say in the HOF building.. the HOF is a separate entity from the ATA.

WPT.. it's sad to see you have been sucked in and believe all the BS stories. The situation in IL is a point of concern for all of us who enjoy and shoot the GAH.. .but even though the shooting numbers are down.. the $$ health of the ATA is 10X's better now then when they left OH. so someone is doing a very good job on the investment side of things.

 

FlaLargarto read up on the forum.
The delegates voted to give $250,000 to the HOF. The minutes are available on this site. No need for you not to know this. And again not one delegate has come forward to say he was told the building was to be owned by Illinois.

FlaLagarto....again the information is available on the site. Almost all monies that have been made have come from Burkey's investments. That has nothing to do with OH but your bitterness towards OH and the CC always is mentioned.

As to the success the ATA has found since finding Sparta please see that the numbers of the GAH for the last 5 years hasn't been this low since before the Korean War. Of course those numbers are available on the site as well. And you didn't know?

Read up FlaLagarto and I will give you an atta boy.

 

FlaLargarto...On the site if you read it you will find somewhere where the ATA paid big bucks for a marketing firm to survey the ATA to see what the members wanted. See if you can find that.

The ATA ignored those needs and went to Sparta instead. Please don't make me do the reading for you.

 

FlaLagarto
The following is for you as I knew you would not want to look up the facts. From Oct 18th post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how did we get here?

Who could have predicted the outcome?

What did the membership want? Those answers are easy. Documented in black and white by the ATA. Quotes from the survey sent to the membership in 2003. The summary of that survey follows....

Survey says

(document provided to American Trapshooter.com by Brad Dysinger)

Recently the ATA sent a seven-question survey to 20,000 of its members. Nearly 4,800 replied, a 24 percent response rate.

ATA members in the U.S. live in one of five zones designated by the group: Eastern, Southern, Central, Southwestern and Western. By far the largest number of survey responses, 2,094, came from the Central Zone which includes the states of North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio and Indiana.

The Central Zone also contains by far the largest number of active ATA members — 12,331 or 36 percent of the group’s 34,271 active members.

The Eastern Zone, which includes the six New England states plus Delaware, Maryland, New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, contains the second-highest number of active members, 7,178, or 21 percent.

Of the survey respondents, 2,435 said they attend the Grand American every year. The vast majority of the annual attendees, 1,390 or 57 percent, live in the Central Zone. The next-largest group which attends every year, 527 or 22 percent, comes from the Eastern Zone.

Question four in the survey asked,

“If the Grand moves to a location that is further away from you, how would it affect your attendance?”

Of the 1,821 total respondents from the Central Zone, 75 percent said they would attend less often or not at all.

Of the 906 members who responded from the Eastern Zone, 83 percent said they’d go less often or not at all.

Perhaps the most telling question in the survey asked the respondents to rank the important factors in choosing a new location.

The largest majority named “pro-gun state” as their top choice. One issue with the site in Sparta has been Illinois’ restrictive gun laws, although state officials have reportedly been working to change them.

“Proximity to current location” was the second most important factor in picking a new location, followed by “land ownership vs. lease” and “proximity to amenities.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The membership knew the outcome.

The membership told the EC what the outcome would be.

 

Where did I say this had anything to do with OH ?? I attend the annual meeting at the Grand every year.. so I didn't need to read to know where the money is coming from.. I simply stated that financially the ATA was in better shape now then when it moved from OH. You seem to have a reading problem.. you see words that aren't there. Perhaps an eye check is needed.

This was also done in the annual meeting.. the money was simply given as a donation to the HOF. (if you knew me or read anything I posted you would know that I have spoken out many times about how stupid I thought it was to build the HOF at the Sparta location and that any and all ATA members who donated got the shaft) But that's ok.. you just keep reading words I didn't type... the good doc loves the pot you stir

 

The delegates financed it. Call it a donation to the HOF although it was really was a donation to the State of Illinois as the State owns it. Had the EC and delegates done their due diligence they would not have voted for the move to Sparta. The delegates had they done their due diligence would not have voted to finance the HOF. If the above 2 requirements of the EC and delegates were completed there would not be a $2.1 building that neither the ATA or HOF will own.

I gave you the results of the survey above. The EC ignored those results.

FlaLagarto you may note that the funds that exist cannot be accessed by the ATA for just any reason. 501 C 3 funds cannot be co-mingled. Please see User-1 posts.

 

I don't doubt the money was used in the construction... but to say that they financed it.. is a really large stretch of the imagination

Opinions are free .. you have yours and I have mine. You seem to want nothing more then to bash and condemn the ATA.. I have one last question for you then I'm done...

What are YOU doing to help rebuild the ATA?? Are you running for Delegate?? Are you offering your help on a committee ?? Are you an elected official in your state?? Are you on the BOD at your local club?? How many people have you brought to the club and introduced them to trap shooting and the ATA?

 

If I gave you $250,000 that was ear marked from construction I would say I financed it. The delegates voted for it. They cant hide from their due diligence.

I have no duty to rebuild anything. Until we remove cancerous blood sucking leaches that have destroyed our org there will be no rebuilding. Only further destruction. The sport....that is a different story. As HB stated...If I hate the sport then why am I so concerned about the future.

Perfect quote repeated from the Kool Aid crowd. If you are not a delegate or EC then don't criticize the EC. Get over it. We are doing it. We are or were members. Don't like it...punt. We have a voice....all of us.

I played a big part getting my local zone official elected and educating him as to the issues. As he is now concerned about the problems you would label him a basher too. It is what Kool Aid servers do.

I have no duty and am not interested in being any more loyal to the ATA and EC then the SCTP was to Sparta. I hope to god no one says they joined the ATA because of me. At least not recently. I am involved with my clubs. Have you seen the pictures of the Dysinger Thrown Down shoot?

Have you seen the hundreds of photos I have taken about trapshooting at various venues that are posted on this forum. Photos about several types of sports. Not just trapshooting. Take some time to read up. You wont ask such silly questions.

As to my dedication to the sport.... I helped (with others) make it possible for folks to finally have an opinion and be educated about the ATA and other shooting sports by investing $20k in a website. It gives us all the chance to be heard.

Bet that that really chaps your britches.

 

Flagrato: For your information ATA President at the time was Tom Acklin, and he was given the offer by Dayton, Lex Wexner, and OSTA, he turned them all down, then came back to Lex Wexner, and Mr. Wexner turned him down.
Mr.Wexner offered the ATA a 99 year lease on property in US Route 40, facing north over a mile long.

Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

Sorry to pop your bubble.. but this site makes no difference to me. The only thing I see here is a like minded group of people who want to express their opinion. But the powers here pick and chose what an outsider can post and who can post. That's a dictatorship.. nothing open and free about it.

 

Flalagarto,
I am just an ordinary member here, your statement that the powers here pick and chose what an outsider can post and who can post is entirely without merit. I have never seen anyone" BANNED" on this site and anyone can post as they wish just what is not open and free about that. Just because you have a problem with someone on this site donot blame the site. A question have you been stopped from any posting or removed anything you have posted on this site. No dog in this fight but just sayin.

 

PROVE IT !

I love this one, " This site makes no difference to me"

Now, if this was that old worn out site and you posted that little gem the four stooges would say something like,

If that is true, what the hell are you even doing on here?

Go back to that other site.

You don't belong here.

Only REAL trap shooters post here.

You only come on here to stir the pot and have NOTHING to add.

You really should just shut the hell up.

Those above and the head STOOGE calling you a few names.

I haven't even looked at that old place in about 10 months but since you still post there you can find examples of all of them.

But that is how they deal with anyone that doesn't think the ata and the people leading it are doing a fantastic job. And I REALLY don't care since that site truly "makes no difference to me."

You can post whatever and whenever you like as far as I'm concerned. It adds to the count. Never thought OVER A YEAR AGO that this site would even be here for you to post did you?

And, just for the record, I would be OK if this site was a "dictatorship".

I didn't leave the ata, the ata left me.

 

Spoken like a true Bozobama fan..

 

Personally I feel the ATA ought to step aside and keep silent while the Martins negotiate a price, after all it's their money.
I think Bill is a good negotiator, what do the rest of you think?

GB.....................DLS

 

I think you should let the Martins speak for themselves!!

 

http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/202/202118440/202118440_201409_990.pdf ....

This is what I think ..."Page 7" says they PAY someone "136,432" plus "2,916" TO DO THIS .... Why make someone pay the "rent money" and do the work ??????