This is the approach the IRS does, we need to have the documents.

Every business has a spread sheet, that has lists where the money is spent, the spread sheet can be a cheat sheet, but when an item is contested and is proven wrong, and does not belong in this column,
this comes to mind from me. The CHC members record their expenses, lodging, travel/mileage,
meals, Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, their event entry is not allowed as a deduction to the ATA, their shells are not allowed as a deduction to the ATA, trapgun repairs are not allowed as an ATA deduction, because these are not business related expenses that should be paid for by the members, The spread sheet will have payroll deductions, Hours worked, Overtime worked, Fed Taxes deducted, FICA deductions, Hospital/Blue Cross, Blue Sheild deductions, uniform costs/rental, net paid, utilities/Gas, Water, Electric, Sewer, advertising exp., Targets cost & quantity, Target Sales & Quantity/ trap machines bought, trap machine parts bought for repair, office supplies/paper/pens/printer ink/ printers/ computers/, this detailed Check Book Balances are where they will look during an audit/ and an detailed expenses we Life Members are entitled to, but never get to see. One item that hides cost is
on the report I got, was cost of targets per example cost, $25,000/ sales of targets was $25,000 so the ATA sold targets at cost, we all know better than that as we paid $35.00Plus/ATA fee/Maint Fee which equaled $40.00 per 100 targets. , so where was the profit from target sales listed,? This was one very interesting hiding profits. not to mention Pullers, Setters, Etc. balances in Banks, Bonds, Securities, Emergency Funds, Every Check written by the ATA Treasurer is in this spread sheet, to whom and for what., I did not list real property purchased/leased etc
Checkbook balance sheet, is the one I want to see, and you members need to see.


Gary Bryant......................Dr.longshot

 

There was a time many moons and days ago members would get a balance sheet in the mail, with the cyber world process's today all they have to do it make a list (check it twice, oops wrong thread) and push the button once to send to all the members who request one ... I requested one a few years ago and Neil Winston sent me one, smelled like he was reading it in the smoke house (WHEW) ... I'm going to send another request and see if I get a response from anyone in the home office ... WPT ... (YAC) ....

 

I requested a financial statement for 3 years, finally got one from Tom Acklin when he was President. All life members were entitled to a financial report, above is one item I knew was not correct, cost of targets=sale of targets
Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

Doctor,

That target sales equals cost issue you are concerned about is fine and is not an issue. All they are doing is splitting the shooting fees collected at the grand into two separate parts, sale of targets and the balance as an entry fee. The part of the fee allocated to sales of targets is designed to equal the cost of the targets sold. Sales will always equal cost of the targets. The rest is picked up as a fee.

 

Bat, What was the dollar entry for the fee? Must have been substantial. The difference has to be at least $24.00 per hundred. Roger C.

 

Yeah Roger, it's a pretty common issue, especially in areas where the sale of targets may be subject to sales tax but a fee to shoot in the event isn't. Lots of clubs do this.

 

That is not a logical. or legal reason to not show total cost of targets sold, where is the profit shown on sales?

Gary Bryant......................Dr.longshot

 

So that club is cheating the State out of sales tax? Not legal by any means at least to me.

Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

Let's say targets are $11.00 per case of 135 targets, shooter paid $35.00 per 100=$.35 per target Timesx $.35x135=$47.25 per case, $47.25-$11.00= $36.25 profit per case, ATA pays less than $11.00 per case as a quantity purchase is probably less than $10.00 per case at todays prices. which would raise profits to $37.25 per case by my figures, minimum. Which you take the scorers,/trappers/fees out of then you have this deduction from profit of sales, and profit left goes to general fund. Which you take all office help/employees / scoreboard help/ scoresheet runners etc/wages. when you take the millions of targets thrown at $.35 per target, that's a lot of money, that is how money is made, on target sales.

Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

Doctor,

If you really analyze it, clubs don't sell targets from an accounting viewpoint. They charge a fee to use the shooting facilities. Targets are really just a cost of the Club's providing a round of trap to the participant. Just like water at a car wash, we aren't buying the water, we are paying for a car wash. There is a difference.

We are paying for a round of trap, not buying 25 clay targets. Note that a few states do take a different view from a sales tax perspective, but others don't. To me, I don't see it being a sale for many technical reasons.

But, back to your original point, it makes no difference. Assume 100 target event costs $33 and the targets used cost $9/100. I would treat that as revenue from shooting fees for $33. The cost of the targets would be shown as $9 as a program service cost totally separate from the revenue. Net income would be $24 ($33-$9).

Another club, for whatever reason, might split that $33 fee into two parts: let's say $9 for targets and $24 for shooting fee. They would show $24 as revenue from shooting fees, then they would separately state sales of targets at $9, less cost of goods sold (targets) of $9, equaling zero profit from the target sales. Their net income would therefore be $24 ($24 fee - $0 profit from target sale), same as my first example. End result is the same either way.

Lets not start saying anyone is cheating on sales tax, that issue gets a lot more complicated and varies too much between the states to waste time on it here. I'm just pointing out that you are tilting at windmills with this issue.

 

If you guys would take a moment to remember back a few years instead of jumping the gun on criticizing ATA clubs several States went after State Trapshooting Organizations on the way they pay State income taxes. More than one State association had to pay back taxes because it wasn't clear on what was being taxed.

I my area all the gun clubs separate target fees and tax fees on the program. It is silly because it still amounts to the same dollar wise but to the State it is clear on what is being taxed. Fourth paragraph from above post explains it all.

 

This is a subject you do not have knowledge to comment on, IRS will look at this when doing audit, they are competent, this is their field, let them handle it

Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

And what do you base that statement on? What does IRS have to do with it either? You were speaking of an issue you had with a financial statement presentation, not 990 reporting. ATA does not do what you are writing about on the 990, they report it as I explained.

I'm not knocking you Doctor, simply pointing out why something you seem to consider strange really isn't, at least to anyone that has experience with it.

 

What I ,do not understand about state taxes on targets a shooter never touches the targets, he does not consume the target
and therefore should not be taxed for them. You buy a car you take possession of it, a beer, wine or soda you consume it.
To me it is unfair taxation, there should be no tax on targets period. I never touch a target, I never take possession of it.

But what I am pointing out is PROFIT ON SALE OF TARGETS. if WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE THE ATA CANNOT BE MAKING ANY MONEY. How can some states tax targets and others not? The Government wants fuel efficient cars, they consume less gasoline therefore there is much less gasoline sold and less taxes collected, then the Government wants to tax gasoline more, a lose/lose situation for the consumer.

Gary Bryant............................Dr.longshot

 

Doctor,

I laid out an example for you, can't you see the net income is $24 under each of the theoretical scenarios? I'm not sure how that equates to not making any money. I guess it doesn't matter at this point. How did you explain all this to the IRS in the complaints you filed?

 

Hey Doctor, regarding your first paragraph in your last post, it sounds like you are now talking about sales tax, and I agree with you on that. We don't ever take possession of the targets, etc., etc.

But even if the state agrees it is not a sale of the targets, some may still tax the fee for shooting a round of trap. Many states exclude a participatory sport, so in those states there is no tax on the shooter. It all depends on the state.

 

That is all confidential information, between the IRS and the ATA and myself, a lot was covered, & confidential information from ATA office personnel.

 

I disagree I am paying for the targets, they are listed in the entry fee(TARGETS) + State Fee & ATA Fee

 

AZ. taxed our target fee's. But most of the time they looked the other way when not getting them. Roger C.

 

OK Doc, you have a pretty simplistic view.