New plan almost ready

To be fair to all classes the new fees needed to pay for the new plan will be calculated to insure the higher class shooters pay a higher amount than lower class shooters. The new plan is designed to make shooting fair for all. Money will be collected after an event has taken place. The more targets you break in an event the more you will pay for your targets. As an example, say a D shooter breaks an 86 in the singles, he would be charged say $.20 per target or 17.20 for the event. Then say a B shooter breaks 90. He would pay $.40 per target or $36.00. Now say a AAA shooter runs the hundred, well he would pay $.90 per target or $90.00 for the event. See how fair this would be, its a really good plan taken right from an Illinois government playbook.

 

Ok

 

Now that is funny, but you have it reversed. Have the lower class shooters pay more, the higher up, pay less. That is from the Cook County playbook.

 

AZCOTRAP - good point. Back to the drawing board. We'll need a couple Chicago politicians to help us sort this out.

 

Oh man! going to loose a lot of shooters no matter which way you go with this.

 

Someone make a call to the HEAD Chicago politician. It is a DC area code.
I'm sure he could help out.

All the winners split their money with all the losers.

Flyersarebest

 

They are probably going to have to insist on a yearly access fee and a daily facility usage fee. The toilets will also become pay toilets with a surcharge if used more than twice a day. Everything will be spelled out in the 10 year lease agreement you must sign. There will also be a minimum amount each shooter will be required to spend during the mandatory 10 day yearly stay.

 

The thing those working hard on a "new plan" may want to consider .... is ....

The ATA may be able to save the Grand/Sparta .... but the Grand/Sparta will never be able to save the ATA ....

Spend the time, money, and effort in saving the ATA ... then worry about the Grand's future location. Or ... fight hard for a personal playground for the few, and both will die.

 

Sounds like a pay as you go but nobody can tell us where we will go. Maybe later

 

That is a very insightful comment. The ATA does seem to have become the Sparta Trapshooting Association. It seems they'll do anything to avoid admitting a mistake.

 

The State of Illinois created another stumbling block for shooters by making them purchase a non resident hunting license for $35.00 so they can purchase their ammunition off of the grounds or be forced to deal with Gamaliels and pay more for their ammo ... The ATA should of been on top of this and told (asked ) them not eliminate that second choice because it will piss off a bunch of shooters, unless they are getting a kick back from them ... Because I was being forced to deal with Gamaliels I would buy and carry all of my ammunition under any and all circumstances at any and all cost ... I would pay the $35.00 just to show them that they cannot force me to buy on the grounds ... This is how it gets started, then they tell you instead of ask you ... Principle, and Integrity, if you want some bring your own ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Just a queation----- If a resident purchases ammunition does the State of Illinois record all the ammunition purchased by the resident. I believe a resident has to show a "FOID" card to ourchase a firearm and ammunition.

If the ammunition purchased by a resident is not recorded or if a resident can purchase an unlimited amount of ammunition without any problems then a non resident could have a friend who is a resident purchase ammunition from say a Walmart store to shootat the Grand.

This could help a person that has a problem with having to purchase ammunition at the grounds. Again just asking a question.

 

The State of Illinois has to do something to eliminate the big loss if the WSRC is going to survive ... That means everyone who participates in any events at the facility should have to pay to cover the offset ... Take an average number of shooters and times it by XXXX dollars and raise the fees, prices accordingly ... If the Grand American Championships are so elite people should understand the increase of fees (prices) to retain a place for it to be held ... The tax payers in the State do not want to pay for a bunch of trapshooters to have a place to play for two weeks of the year and thats understandable ... If the shoot does not attract what ever the average number of shooter by agreement then have the governing organization of any given event pay the difference ... This will tell people several things, first just how important it is to have the Grand American, secondly who all of those who feel its that important are willing to pay for the experience of participation in the Grand American ... It only makes sense that those that attend pay for the pleasure of doing so ... The new ATA motto could be "If your gonna play, you got to pay" ... Good Luck shooters ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT,

Why is the burden on the shooters? Why not the State of Illinois resopnsible for the problem? If cost to participate increases to a point shooters will not go there, then the problem is even bigger as more revenue is lost. That the way government works, lose revenue, increase taxes and fees. A business seeks ways to increase the number of paying customers.

If a poor business plan caused the problem, don't expect the customers to pay for it. The State will have cut costs, draw more customers through more events of different disciplines and maybe add more features. Perhaps a lake, an amusement park, NASCAR track, other things to keep the facility going year round.

 

AZCO,
The facility is losing money faster then they can count so if you think putting an amusment park, nascar track, or any other star attractions which cost big money to build and then maintain by the way is going to change that we both know thats not close to right ... The burden is always on the customers when it comes to a business thats why there are business plans in the first place ... There was obviously a gross miscalculation by the State of Illinois based on the numbers that were presented by the ATA of 100,000 plus shooters and visitors so they came up with the $3.00 per event number, that would be due cause to change the rules of the game accordingly ... If your going to play, you have to pay, why should anyone else have to support something for those who attend if they are not interested in doing so ..? Sorry, but that not the way the game is played from where I am sitting ...

The Grand American Championships are supposed to be an ELITE shoot or Elite shooting experience and those things do not come cheap ... If that causes a more probable decrease in attendance then the importance of the shoot no longer exists, so the slack has to be taken up by the organization who is hosting the events and or those who attend and they have to find a way to increase the attendance or choke on it ... Thats the way it goes when it comes to being in the big time ... Honesty and Integrity is rule number ONE, lay it all out there and plan around it ... The State of Illinois has lost over $22,000,000 in 10 years, how would you propose they stop the bleeding, raise the prices and fees or close the place down ..???? Increase the attendance, HOW ..? Its been dropping and that will continue if they keep doing the samething they cannot expect a different results ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I don't want to repeat everything said, because it would take up too much time.

How do you know other attractions would not work? Ever been to Branson MO? The facility in Sparta cannot survive on just one type of clientele, because there is not of that business to justify it and it is not located smack in the middle of a major metropolitan area for some other type of use. Shooting disciples must be located away from people.

--------------



"The burden is always on the customer when it comes to a business...."

I have never heard that before.

----------------

Perhaps you are right and the Grand American Championships should be limited to the elite and the riff raff turned away from the gate. Only those who shoot X thousand of targets a year and maintain a B average in singles and doubles and shoot from the 25 should attend. Someone just made that observation to me a couple weeks ago. Make it like a golf championship, only the best can attend. One thing that would certainly fix is not needing a huge complex to hold the Grand, it could be held anywhere around the country, or Canada.

 

not being able to edit after a cut off time is the pits.

What I said;

How do you know other attractions would not work? Ever been to Branson MO? The facility in Sparta cannot survive on just one type of clientele, because there is not of that business to justify it and it is not located smack in the middle of a major metropolitan area for some other type of use. Shooting disciples must be located away from people.

What I meant to say:

How do you know other attractions would not work? Ever been to Branson MO? The facility in Sparta cannot survive on just one type of clientele, because there is not enough of that business to justify it and it is not located smack in the middle of a major metropolitan area for some other type of use. Shooting disciples must be located away from people.

 

The area is what is the problem, lacking of hotels, motels, restaurants, lounges, etc ... Yes, I have been to Branson and they have more infrastucture than they will ever use but all of them are busy making money, thats another problem with the WSRC, it has not made a dime in 10( as in TEN ) years, has actually lost over $22,000,000 dollars ... The area does not warrant any additional investements to drag it down just that much faster ... You obviously have never been in business or had to make a business work to pay the bills, employees etc ... The next time your in Sparta tell me again how its located " smack in the middle of a major metropolitan area for some other type of use.", its in the middle of Noplace, Illinois and the closest big city is over 1 hour away next to what used to be one of the biggest Ghetto's in the United States (East St. Louis, Ill) ... You should run for the BOD, they would love to have a guy like you with them as the PR man ... Get real ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Oh, but I have been in business, but doubt you ever were, saying it is the burden of the customers to make a business succeed. I guess if I open up a sandwich shop making lizard gut sandwiches, I can blame the customers, or lack there of for the failure of my business choice and plan.

 

AZCO

You say you have been in business. Yet when discussing the 20,000 or so members we recently lost you said.

Probably members we do not need anyway, apparently not committed to the sport.

You must be one of the higher paid CEOs in your state.

 

Business 101 :
1.. Location ..

2. Location

3. Location

4. have a service that is readily needed in that immediate area of the Location ...

5. Have convient dining, lounging, entertainment, restaurants, parking in close proximity to that LOCATION ...

6. The business would provide for customers a service that they want and need at that location ...

7. Adequate hotel, motel, camping, showing, in the immediate area of that LOCATION ...

The list goes on and on, fill in the blanks ... Remember Location, Location, Location is rule #1 when it comes to business ...
I cannot and will not explain it any clearer or in any more detail for you ... That said, GOOD BYE ...

I got the feeling you are another poster that I have blocked because I got tired of his nonsense over the years, has not taken that long with you ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

My last post for today.

And the customer is always right, or haven't you heard that one. Ignore me if you wish, it will do us both good. See if you can get FG to do the same..

 

NASCAR track? Gateway went out of business in St. Louis, and they think Sparta is an option?

Plus, the dirt boys already run at DuQuoin.

 

Back in 2001 or so the ATA paid a firm to study what members wanted in a move if the grand was to leave Vandalia, Ohio. 1. Move to a gun friendly state. 2. Own the property. 3. Don't move farther away from the most members. 4. Move where there were amenities. The EC of 11 years ago did just the opposite of these and anyone wonders why the grand at Sparta is a failure. The members told everyone back then and the Build it and they will come geniuses went to Sparta, Illinois anyway. GOOD MOVE. Brad

 

Brad - I know it seems like a couple of poor decisions might have been made in the past but I'm pretty sure somebody told me ten years ago they had a plan and now we fast forward to today and I think they are working on another plan. They gotta keep thinking as that's what they do best. Their such deep thinkers I think some of us just can't follow their logic. Not picking on Brad or anyone else but we got some really good thinkers working for us and I'm sure everything will work out great, well pretty sure, I mean I hope so, I mean what else could go wrong?

 

The ATA set up " due dilligence" as Brad is talking about in the above post and it was broadcast to the members, they eliminated that by getting involved in a lease which was their way of getting around something they spent a lot of the members money to develope ... I would be willing to BET that the report has long since gotten lost and or destroyed to eliminate any and all evidence it ever existed ... If you look at any part of it, it screams "desparation" on the part of the ATA ... The ATA is a member organization and the members deserve to be made aware of whats going on, on their behalf ... Its not done that way and the EC gets backed by the BOD and they do what ever their agenda says to do ... I cannot prove it but I would venture to say some people got "greased" (finacially enriched) by making that move ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Well now I'm reading that some seem to think that the Martins are going to buy Sparta. Not sure who started and is pushing the idea but I doubt there's any truth to it. I can't see how purchasing Sparta would offer much opportunity for anything other than a loss of quite a bit of money. It's still in the middle of nowhere.

 

The WSRC is a loser, was born a loser, been a loser, will always be a loser, people with money do not invest in losers ... The Martins tried to turn the attendance around and donated a small fortune doing so ($550,000 in prize money) plus a Million dollar donation to the HOF for the building , they have contributed more than the organization (ATA) has to no avail ... I cannot see them making such an investment on anything that has been proven to be a loser to the tune of over $22,000,000 in the past 10 years ... Nothing would surprise me but I do not see it happening ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

A while back TrapWife told us there was "Planning" in the works.

Has anyone heard from her now that the Grand is going on as to whether they have a "Plan" yet or not ?

She seems to have an inside track on things.

 

"THE PLAN" is complete, done, over. They have declared victory and announced the "2016 Grand American" with a sign prominently displayed for all to see. For those of us looking for something a little more involved it seems we missed the obvious. There was no need for in depth planning, day long meetings and etc., they handled it in the simplest and most expedient way. They put up a sign which forces everyone including the Governor to back off and go away. Once the signs up nothing can stop them now. Wow, I did not see this quick and simple solution.

 

And since Rauner didn't call "No Signseys," the ATA really outfoxed him on this one.

 

Another great point! Rauner probably thought he had things under control then he gets outfoxed by a sign and he never thought about calling "No Signseys." Those ATA guys sure are slick.

 

Maybe the REAL question here should be "Who got paid to move the Grand to Illinois?"

 

The moving and trucking companies?

 

AZCOTRAP, You know how Government works!

 

The first thing I thought of when I was sent a pic of the sign was ,hell, if that's all it takes,

Someone should have hung a sign in the main building at Vandalia back in 2005.

Flyersarebest

 

Flyersarebest,

You should not post stuff like that, it sounds like an admission short sided planning.

 

The people that made the decision to move to sparta would never admit that it was short sighted.

 

One should never admit to anything.

 

Ah! It seems the WSC has hit another snag. The NEW PLAN was just about set to be unveiled when a young college graduate recently hired by the State of Illinois Department of Environmental Compliance made her first official field visit to the WSC. Her findings resulted in chaos at the home office and might result in a huge environmental cleanup before the park can be reopened. Lead contamination was expected and she was instructed to ignore it in her report but a couple of motorhomes allowed their gray water to leak onto the grass and now all hell is breaking loose. The Feds will be called in this week to investigate. There's a rumor the motor coaches may have been from Ohio or Pennsylvania. Just not sure at this point.

 

Is this serious or in jest?

 

Jest, jest - things get so stupid you've gotta laugh just to keep your mind off all the negative things currently happening.

 

Absoluetly, poor choice of product, poor business decision, and poor LOCATION Plus POOR MANAGEMENT I think you need a good business manager, who designs business plans and products, you might try AVON.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

It's indeed a shame we have to find humor in such a mess.
A great facility doesn't deserve these problems, but it is what it is.
If it hasn't been done already, possibly an independent firm study of the situation would be interesting, Non gun or shooting people.

It would be interesting if their assessment is what most of us are thinking.


Regards.....Gerald

 

If a true and accurate assessment was to be called for I fear that the facility (WSRC) would be shuttered ... It would not take a financial Wizard to figure out see that the accumulated losses continue to grow on a yearly basis and thats what it would be assessed ... I feel this would be the last thing the ATA would want to see happen if the results were used as a reason to keep or close the facility ...

"A great facility doesn't deserve these problems, but it is what it is" (Gerald)

It is not the facility, its the location of the facility that is the problem and lacking of infrastruture ... It's that you have to take a trip after making the trip, on a daily basis to get where you are going for the night ... The people of Sparta and the State welcome anything that will generate revenue to the area, that is now in question after 11 consecutive years of costing the State of Illinois a lot of tax payers dollars ... Personally, I prefer that State continues to take the loss and keeps the facility open and operational but I would not bet that is going to happen ... In a real world it does not make any sense to keep feeding a dead horse ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Before the WSC can reopen after its September closing an undetermined amount of money will need to be available for initial expenses. Currently the thinking is $925,000+ for facility maintainence until the end of the fiscal year and another $325,000+ for political donations to get necessary approvals. To raise the money one of the well known managers has floated the idea of commemorative T-Shirts and Bumper stickers. The shirts would be $250 and the stickers $175. They also thought about coins but they worried they would disappear before they could be sold. They will need the expected 50-100 thousand annual Sparta competitors and visitors to each buy a shirt and bumper sticker. The money would need to be collected in September and the shirts and stickers will be handed out at next years Grand. No refunds!

 

Ain't gonna hoppen, can you picture people paying $ 250.00 for a T-shirt and a bumper sticker for $ 175.oo and then wait until the next Grand to receive them, if then. I realize that this is in jest but someone might just think it was true based on all the other things floating around about the WSC. While some would consider this a valid and necessary donation which would have to go to the State I don't believe many shooters would contribute even the shooters that live near the WSC.

 

I remember the last time we had to raise targets $1.00 per hundred and the complaining (1 cent per target) , you would of thought you took the food right out of their mouths, and God forbid if shells went up $ 1.00 per flat ... I know a long time shooter who actually quit because of those increases, so it will be interesting to see what any price increase causes people to do ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Rather than a price increase as I stated on another thread it would be interesting to see exactly what the true cost of the IDNR operation would be assessed to the ATA operation at the WRSC. I don't think the WRSC cost has ever been considered broken down in relation to the other venues in operationin the recreational park.

 

Would need an active "living" taxpayer/voter to investigate that. Extreme emphasis on living....... Elections are on the way, we all know what's been happening in past elections. But hey I may know a few thousand /or hundred thousand "voters" in Illinois to keep the place open for thirty plus years.

 

We have had one person who seems to really have some good contacts with the higher ups in the ATA.

Trapwife, can you shed any more light on what's going on for us ?

Seriously, If it were not for Karla, I am not sure any of us would get the Real Story !

Thanks "K" !!!

 

I know they plan on being open this week-end.

 

The WSRC schedule goes into Dec, of 2015, per the web site ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Any word on the new plan or the new manager? Interested if new plan might mean new fees.

 

We could and will be waiting a while to hear just what is happening, typical government process, someone in authority makes a statement then you wait for the other shoe to drop. It was reported in a previous thread that the WRSC will be open this weekend, if true what happened to the governor's statement of closing September 01, 2015 and were all WRSC employees laid off or just wiorking part-time.

 

Bill Martin, Would buy the WRSC Center (IF THERE WAS OIL UNDER THE PROPERTY) I doubt if he would buy it for the ATA. He may toss money around a little, but he is a master at making it not wasting it. Roger C.

 

Bill, I called the WSC yesterday afternoon and the lady there told me the place would be open this week-end. No response if they were closing at all.

 

Seitz9010, even though your jest posts are entertaining, a few will be along directly to chew yer azz out!

Pull a trick on them, wear your shorts backward?

HAP

 

New plan on hold! Due to the overwhelming enthusiasm regarding renewals for vendor and campsites additional upgrades are under consideration. With the hugely successful HOF completed, current thinking allows for all ATA members to participate in the great future forecast. Illinois politicians have devised a plan to allow shooters to directly participate in the future through the purchase of shares for the low, low, ridiculously low price of $5,000 each. Each shareholder will receive free parking and unlimited access to vendor row. Shares are to be backed by the financial integrity of the state of Illinois and city of Sparta. Shares will hopefully go on sale as soon as Sparta enlarges city limits to include the WSC.

 

A few people may have to much time on their hands!

 

Seitz9010

You might just get a few takers....... remember Orson Welles War of the Worlds on the radio, (some of us older folk will remember this) many people thought that it was true and happening, caused panic in some areas.

 

Seitz9010

Ya know, what about just placing another Relocation Fee on each event like they did at Vandalia.

This could be just an ongoing fee to SUPPORT the already relocation of the Grand.

Heck, if even 2,000 shooters average 1/2 of the events, and pay perhaps an additional 10 dollar fee for the pleasure of shooting there, it may put a dent into the loss. Then instead of the ATA adding that Added Money they just give another $250,000.00 to the State each shoot, this would help also.

Just thinking ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Brad's friend

You're last line........ Just thinking............ should be changed to......... Just stinking.... although you just might get some takers, ........it would not be prudent to mention any names or where they were from.

 

Dave,
It should also be coupled with an agreement to give the life members their voting rights back. Maybe then we can get an informed group of leaders in the organization. How about a vote of all lifers on all members of the B.O.D. and E.C. Make them stand on their actions. Roger C.

 

Roger,
I doubt that Life Members will ever get the right to vote back or it is something we will ever see again, it would make to much sense ... The BOD and or EC does not feel they have to answer to the membership so to give members the ability to vote would only create problems for them ... The separation between the EC, BOD and members is by design ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bill,

I agree with what you stated, but the E.C. and B.O.D. had better realize they have the ATA on a down hill slide and so far they have not been applying the brakes. Would it be better to share the running of the organization or loose it all together? We have some very intelligent people in the rank and file. Why not let them help? Making the same mistakes and expecting a better out come has not worked to good for the last 15 yrs. Why do they think it will work now?

It seems that to many of our leaders have used this organization to bolster their private agendas and egos. There have been serious mistakes made, but I have yet to hear anyone say so. No one expects every thing they do to be perfect,but at least admit the program is defective. Roger Coveleskie

PS I would hope all of our state delegates get a chance to read this. They are supposed to be the members first line of defence, and they seem to be lacking back bones,

 

Geez Roger, I'm trying to go low profile for awhile and you're out there looking to draw fire. All I can say is "DUCK" "STAY LOW, REAL LOW" they know where you are. Many of you need to remember logical thought will not be tolerated.