Hypothetical Vandalia Question

Let’s pretend that the Grand never left Ohio. Do you think the number of shooters would be as high as always? Would you still attend and shoot the Grand knowing how corrupt the ATA is simply because the ATA listened to what the shooters wanted and stayed in Vandalia.
I was never fortunate enough to attend a Grand in Vandalia, but I’ve heard stories of how great it was from my buddies who once shot there. I only know Sparta and it’s close to home but there is no comparison to the stories of Vandalia. Anyway there’s just a couple of questions I’ve wondered about for awhile and look forward to the replies.

 

I’m my honest opinion, trying to compare old to new is just not possible. As a younger person the stories you hear about the grand back when are great. I particularly like the one where kids were diving for Dan Bonillas spent shells. There is no doubt he is/was/will always be a legend in the sport, just like many others. I don’t think that type of crowd would still be around today, with technology and kids/youth there is a disconnect with the “real” aspect of things. The stories I hear today mostly involve drinking unfortunately. Camper parties and such, maybe it’s the crowd I know, The 70’s and 80’s were great times, a lot of the stories I hear are from that time. Unfortunately things evolve and change some for the good, some for the bad. You just don’t hear stories anywhere for any activity like they used to be. I really wish I could of seen a grand back in the “glory” days. I would not be attending the grand if it was still in vandalia. I had no knowledge of trapshooting before the ata moved to Sparta. Trapshooting was not a school sport when I was in school.

 

Brad, it’s Hypothetical. I realize in reality it can’t be done but I want to know what the older generation of shooters has to say. I never experienced Vandalia so I can’t say one way or the other. I know your employed at Sparta and don’t blame you for trying to bring shooters to the venue. I’ve been, great place to shoot, nothing else to offer for family members who don’t or shooters at the end of the day. Sparta will never grow because the City of Sparta can’t grow on a one trick pony. It’s simple logic, not to mention shooters who have venues with more to offer closer to home.

 

You must be boozing or kidding right? No pun intended.
The shoot with the most participants is the kids shoot. Remember the SCTP National Championship? That is the shoot with more shooters than the now paltry shoot you have helped destroy.

Remember they offered free targets if they would stay in Sparta? Nope. Even if the targets were free they wouldn’t stay!

The National College Shoot also said bye.

Great job Brad M.

 

Smithy, any thoughts on the Hypothetical Grand?

 

Smithy made a great point about the SCTP. So yes is my answer. You got to remember that everything the ATA has done for the last 15 years is to promote Sparta and nothing to promote the other clubs. Since the ATA left Ohio we have had many clubs that shoot ATA stop or close while the smaller non registered clubs are doing fine.

Another thing is that just last year there were over 8,000,000 mew gun owners so the base of potential Trap Shooting has grown tremendously in just the past year. Moving from a gun friendly state to a gun hate state can't be stressed enough as a bad move.

Also the same people that moved to Sparta are the same one's that diluted Registered shooting by making the targets too easy, taking the money out of the game, cheapening the All American Teams, adding all the categories, and all the other dumb ass things that men like N1H1 did, but the move was the nail.

 

The GRAND in Vandalia was the Grand as anticipated on an annual basis ... The grounds were small and cramped, never enough out houses, ahh the Beer tent (attraction) the people movers, the vendors, Lemonade( real), Italian sausage (irreplaceable) with peppers and onions, The gun smiths, Shell house, not enough parking, the Cafe ( food was not very good ),Friendly's , Dayton North Holiday Inn (made reservations on departing day for next year) , the Jets coming in over your head and leaving in front of you , Tipp City, it was out grown ten years before but it was and will always be "The GRAND", met many people from all over the world there ... It was an event that was always looked forward to even with all that was wrong with it, very few ever complained ... It was what (WSRC) Sparta will never be, its gone and has been for 15 plus years but people talk about and remember it more today than they do last year or any other year at Sparta ... I guess you had to be there to know what everyone is talking about ... I would usually set aside 2/3 days for shopping the rest was for shooting, eating and having fun ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The answer is. If the same peopla that managed the sport were in charge, the result would be the same. They would make the same dumb mistakes.
When they quit listening to the members it was all over. Roger C.

 

The ATA in all of its wonderment and glory eliminated the game and replaced it with Greed and contempt for the membership ... The ED, EC, and many of the BOD made the ATA a "Cash Cow" to fulfill their own personal wishes/ desires and the hell with the members, get their expenses paid and be coddled and attended to like little children ... If the ED, EC, and many on the BOD knew how little respect the caring members have for them they would never show their faces again ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

In my opinion if the grand was still in Vandalia it probably wouldn't be as large as it was in the 4500 -5000 years but I believe it would be above 3000 entries and if there had been good decisions by the people in charge it may have been as big as it ever was.

If you will bare with me I want to tell a story. My first memories go back to the middle 1940's. As I remember then the grounds were a show place. People up and down the line with sticks with a nail on the end picking up cigar butts, empty shell boxes and any other trash that happened to be on the ground. Grass mowed immaculately flowers planted and maintained and in general a beautiful and well maintained property. During the 60's and 70's the care of the property had slipped somewhat but it was still pretty well maintained. Then in I believe 1981 there was a big push by the anti Ohio group to move it out of Ohio. When then governor Rhodes found out this was happening he said(over my dead body will they move the Grand out of Ohio) and it stayed. From that point forward all that was done as for up keep was what had to be done to keep the place functional and some things that were detrimental to it's exitance. Some things that were not in the best interest was building the large camping area and thus doing away with a large portion of the on grounds parking.

When they built the new entry building there were muddy footprints on the steel beams that were still there when the shoot left Vandalia. Also when I came to the Ohio Shoot the following summer there would be piles of broken targets laying in the doorway to the scoreboard building that were there from the previous Grand. One year after the shoot started they mowed the grass at night and many other things were left unattended. I believe that we members were naive as to what was happening, but I really believe that a lot of the lack of up keep was not accidental. I could go on but I believe I have made my point. This is just my opinion.

Dave Berlet

 

I went there to buy a Ljutic.

Flew and rented a car.

The place was a mess.

Virtually nothing more than a mud hole.

I understand the nostalgia and the Grand yrs. being there.

Kind of a hard place to shoot with the planes in the background.

Was only able to shoot the HDCP on the last day.

Vendor's row was a joke.

I remember my friend's RV being so close to the neighbor you could hear their conversation.

Had a good time.

Sparta is much better.

Both are a long way from me but will still support the shoot and the ATA.

I go to shoot and do not get involved with the politics of the ATA.

Been shooting since '84.

 

Vandalia was a destination, Sparta is an abomination.

 

You been there Brad?

 

I HAVE BEEN TO EVERY GRAND SHOT AT SPARTA. Brad is correct. Sparta is a let down. First class facility, run by idoits.
Who are self serving leaches. Roger C.

 

From your previous post it sounds like Brad has been to Sparta more times than you were at the grand in Vandalia. One of the times he was there he presented me at my HOF induction.

Dave Berlet

 

Yes I have, the first time was to offer the OSTA's and Jack Fishburn's offer of free land and money to move the ATA Trap HOF and Museum to the Cardinal Center to the ATA which Jim Bradford dismissed out of hand. Ask the History Buff about that trip. . I said that would be my last trip but then Dave was put in the HOF and I had to go twice.

Sparta is too large and unfriendly for a trap club. The vendors, what's left, were spread out to far apart and NO ONE was at the beer tent. Abomination may be too kind. No way is anything about Sparta Grand.

 

Ljutic329:
Would you put up some of your target numbers? 16s, handicap, and doubles.
You sound like you want us to believe you are a old time shooter. I think you maybe just an old timer.

Ron Burdick
ATA #3703782

 

I am just an old timer.

Didn't get to shoot much for many yrs. as I was working in the Oilfield and on call.

Never said I was any good just like to shoot when I can.

 

Maybe Ron we can meet at a shoot and you can teach all the secret's of being a AAA27AA shooter.

I'm sure you're an All American and could sure use the coaching.

Good luck and hope you can help me.

 

Shame on you. You missed the Shuckin' Shack-the bar of Champions! Just getting off the plane and hearing all that wonderful shooting made your heart beat a few extra beats. And Sparta-well ugh?

 

I missed a bunch of them, used to get the same room at Dayton North Holiday Inn every year L 101, 1 st door between the bar/restaurant and the pool ... Free parking for members, I'd give the kid at the Gate $20.00 the first day and he saved my parking spot for the entire week of the Grand ...

I had been to Sparta before they built the facility, Buddy of mines family lived there ... Felt like I was in Mayberry with Andy, Opie, Aunt Bee, and Barney, was a very relaxing few days with good home cooking ... His family all worked in town at Peabody coal, Police Dept, or Hospital ... Nice people ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I have a "hypothetical question" ..... If you are going to dream, dream big .....

What if the entire ATA hierarchy would resign ?????

The 'grand' is one shoot ..... and Sparta is one place ..... the self-serving a-holes are 24/7 365 .....

So, a great purge would be the requirement for many to return, not a relocation of the same old shit in a different, or past, location .....

FWIW ..... The Vandalia 'home-grounds' started going to shit, when more money was spent for 'gun gifts' and 'paid travel to shoot' than on the home-grounds ......

 

Oledawg mentioning the sound of all the shooting brought back some good memories. We would drive in from the north on 25 (the dixie highway) and when we would get to Vandalia it sounded to me just like walking into a theatre and hearing the popcorn being popped. Also there wasn't any place in the world that compared to the Vandalia beer stand. Sometimes I may have even stayed too long, .but everyone was there and if you left too soon you might miss out on a memorable story. So many great memories from Vandalia.

Dave Berlet

 

And of course Little York Pizza

 

there was a lot more to do with the off time in van'.
many liked the ease of walking across the street from their motel to shoot. that was attractive.
something about old structures makes you feel like youre part of something solid and proven. sorta like going to a state fair where you know the layout by heart.
in todays world, theres too many choices, too many changes, too many.. itll be different tomorrow, situations.
i like old worn paths where i know where the ruts are.
maybe that's why im still on dial up! :>

 

Ron Burdick never claimed he was a AAA shooter. However, he’s done more for trapshooting in more states in this country than you will ever realize. Get off your high-horse.

Jon Reitz

 

I've never been to Sparta but have been to Vandaila. Great memories. It was an exciting place to go to. The 13 hour drive felt like 33 with the anticipation of what was to come.

 

One of my favorite places was Christy's right across the street from the drive that went past Shamrock Leather and not too far away was the Buckhorn. Many years ago we sometimes stopped at the Vandalia Cafeteria which I believe was owned by the Brusman Family. Also a very good spot was the Original Rib House which was in part owned by Brusman's and so many more.

Dave Berlet

 

THE BUCKHORN !!!!!! Better make reservation early. What a super place it was and the STEAKS where the best. Every year to Vandalia ment a trip to the BUCKHORN..................Da, B

 

I think it goes without saying there was no lack of good to great food and places to enjoy a meal or spend some time with friends besides places to stay be it close or father away ... The only thing left is the memories, those that were never there will never know ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Edited : I attended the GRAND in Vandalia 11 consecutive years, shot 9 of them plus all of the "Outlaws at Tipp City" (or what ever they called it) Camp Troy ... The two years I was out of commission for shooting I made the drive any way because it was well worth it to get to be at the place, watch the shooters, the above mentioned establishments, the Vendors, Dealers, eat, the Beer Tent, meet and mingle with the Top Guns (never ending list ) I could never mention all of them and won't even try but Dysinger was one of so many of them (Wow, Real People) ... The Grand was better than Christmas for a lot of folks, and more fun than New Years Eve to many others ... With a tear in my eye, I feel the Grand Died the last time they locked it up and moved ... The Grand ( REAL GRAND) was so much to so many, there is no place, no body, or nothing that will ever replace it ... NUFF said ...

 

If none of the before mentioned eateries was what you wanted all you needed to do was take a trip to Miller Lane about 5 minutes from the grounds and there was about anything restaurant wise that you could hope for. O'Charley's Roadhouse Out Back Crab Shack Bob Evans Hooters and some more. Also about 10 minutes away in Dayton there was lots of restaurants and most anything else in the way of things to do, and places to stay. The more this is discussed the more memories that come back.

Dave Berlet

 

The GRAND at Vandalia was indeed GRAND . Sparta is a nice facility and state of the art in many ways but ,mismanaged by a state that could mess up a one car parade ! It will always have a shadow of distrust cast by the likes of their MORON dumb butt Governor ! That dip wad proved he can shut it down on a whim and contracts and signed agreements don't mean a thing to liberals like himself ! To many of those who went there , Vandalia was like dating their first love ! Was it overcrowded YES but ,it had it's own kind of magic that will probably never be seen again ! I enjoy going to Sparta to "shoot", but the magic will never match that of Vandalia. Most of the ATA officials today do not have the "love of the game" in their hearts that was once prevalent in the past . Too many now are concerned by politics and power ,not the health of the sport itself nor the welfare of the members. The Grand will live on but not like it once was. That died when the first bulldozer started it's engine at Vandalia .

 

The “grand” will have the same number of shooters as soon as all those mid-west shooters that winston said would make up the difference show up.

THAT is the problem. When the survey went out and all the OH and PA shooters said NO FRIGGING WAY they must have said

Sure thing Neil. We will be there. You can tell the membership that we will make up for any of those eastern shooters that don’t want to go to that place.

Probably one of the same people that said we wouldn’t last 30 days.

Wrong on both.

 

During the first Grand in Sparta past president Walter Marvel came up to me and said (what in the hell were these people thinking, didn't they realize that the Grand is a lot more than just a trapshoot. For the vast majority it is a family vacation and here we are in the middle of no where with nothing for the rest of the family to do except burn up in the heat.) It was very hot the first year and then the 2nd year it was even hotter. At Vandalia most folks were staying within 15-20 minutes of the beer stand (the meeting place wether you were a beer drinker or not.) In the afternoon after the shooting was done the beer stand simply was where everyone met to meet friends and tell stories and decide where they were going to go to eat. At the Sparta Grand the people are scattered all over that part of Ill. and it is much harder to get together with your friends and some friends that you know are attending you never see where in Vandalia you were going to run into all of your friends. Not whining thats just a major difference.

Dave Berlet